steve49
104 posts
Jul 19, 2009
5:32 AM
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hey guys, what books and dvd's do you have that you feel should be in every rollerman's library? i've got Pensom's "the birmingham roller pigeon" and kowalski's "the spinner".
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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j .wanless
871 posts
Jul 19, 2009
9:44 AM
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hi steve
the best dvd ive seen is the blue sky but its not just about rollers its 3 dvds about pigeons in general
though it has a bit about the w/c. ive also just read the flying vet a book wrote by a pigeon vet who races pigeons,this book learned me things i did not know about lots of diseases i would recomend it to all though it is quite expensive.
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deano
223 posts
Jul 19, 2009
11:08 AM
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the flying vet was written by colin walker very good book on dieseases john winners with spinners is also a good book written by dr g dexter
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sundance
1138 posts
Jul 20, 2009
5:34 PM
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a Guide to the Developement of Performing Rollers.. By Joe Houghton... The best roller book I`ve read. Very easily understood. short and to the point. In the words of Bill Murrey.." just the facts, Jack"
This was the first book I read on rollers and I`d highly recommend it to anyone new to the hobby/sport.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3574 posts
Jul 20, 2009
6:10 PM
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The Pigeon by Levi is a must!
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3220 posts
Jul 20, 2009
7:48 PM
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Winners with Spinners G Dexter great book to add your your library...among all those DVD's Tony have on this site for sell..
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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ezeedad
1013 posts
Jul 21, 2009
4:00 PM
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My first recommendation would be the Bill Pensom book,
The Birmingham Roller Pigeon. It is written with such a deep knowledge of the breed.
There have been several other good books, such as mentioned above that really help with breeding and training rollers.
I wrote my book, Roller Dreams and Realities, to bring something new into the picture, since the same groung has been covered time and time again.
I have introduced a GENEALOGY CHART, which makes the breeding history of ones' family clear at a glance.
The 30 POINT SYSTEM of judging rollers truly evaluates the characteristics of the breed.
A REVISED KIT COMPETITION SCORING would reward the best spinners.. Real roller scoring..!! Not tumbler scoring..!!
Modern Technology can be used to measure speed and depth of rollers..
Video recording can be used for competition and exposing the breed to the public.
Explanation of why inbreeding is best.
Ideas to bring rollers into the 21st century..!!
Paul Gomez
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2009 10:05 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3232 posts
Jul 21, 2009
4:07 PM
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Oh yea Steve grab that book its the best .and you can read the poems and poetry it has to your grandkids when going to sleep..something I would if I ever have grandkids.why read to them the cat went up the tree when I can read something I like rollers dreams..----------
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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ezeedad
1014 posts
Jul 21, 2009
10:10 PM
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Hey Ralph,
I like that idea... getting the next generation of roller enthusiasts going... However, the book only has one poem. It does have 7 fiction stories and 5 stories of real pigeons...
Paul
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Scott
2394 posts
Jul 21, 2009
11:46 PM
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Other than the poorest of judges who scores Tumblers ? The current W/C rules has brought the sport and the breed leaps and bounds that our forefathers could only dream about, it would make a better flyer and breeder out of anyone and helps seperates the facts from fiction storys.
(A REVISED KIT COMPETITION SCORING would reward the best spinners.. Real roller scoring..!! Not tumbler scoring..!!)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2009 11:47 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1988 posts
Jul 22, 2009
6:41 AM
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Scott/Paul,
While the WC rules have their good points, they can also be improved on. As you know, I am of the opinion that your ideas about "poorest judges" are more often related to a difference in the judges perception of his minimum standard for depth or quality. If you don't respect the suggested 10-foot minimum and another judge does, whose opinion is best representative of a majority of the flyers. Is it the judge,s fault or the rules ?
The rules state that they are for judging ROLLERS not tumblers. Once again, does the fault lay with the judge or the rules?
The "stories" are what legends are made of , be they true or false. With the idea that "MY BIRDS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR BIRDS" we will never get a 100% positive understanding about what goes on in another flyers yard.
Scott, were you involved with the WC EC when they changed the fly rules? I detect a bit of fondness or loyalty for the "current " fly rules. I agree with some of the changes but I think had the flyers had a chance to voice their opinions, not all these changes would have been approved.
I think we should always be interested in better understood fly rules and new ideas. But I also think the flyers deserve more of a voice when it comes to any fly rule change. Some of these RD's don't always represent the majority opinion expressed by all those who wish to be heard.
Paul, you have some interesting ideas on judging. I hope you continue to put forth your ideas on the subject.
Cliff
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Scott
2396 posts
Jul 22, 2009
9:15 AM
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Cliff, to understand the changes that we made years ago you have to know the big picture and the problems that we were facing with inconsistany as far as the basic format of the fly.
One thing is for sure,if there is a crack it will be used, the crack we left was that a flyer didn't have to fly even one kit with a legit excuse, this left the door open for those that had no intention of flying.
Cliff, there are no perfect rules,but the W/C rules have and are being adapted world wide, that is pretty darn impressive, but like any these rules are only as good as the judges.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
1015 posts
Jul 22, 2009
10:00 AM
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Scott,
I'm impressed that you found the reference to tumbler vs real roller scoring. It seems to be a sensitive subject..!!
When will you admit that the rules are designed to reward simultaneous performance while giving no real score for speed, style and depth?
Big breaks and frequency are what wins with the current W/C rules.
If speed, style and depth were given scores equal to simultaneous performance, roller breeders would focus their attention on producing Birmingham Rollers that truly perform to the standard.
Currently we have a division between "commercial" or "competition" rollers and "individual" rollers. This is the consequence of the scoring system, not the judges. But you are right in saying that strict judges are what is needed with todays rules.
Pensom said that kit competition was destroying the higher qualities of the breed, but he did not offer a solution. I have tried to help solve the problem for the good of the hobby as well as the breed.
Paul G
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Scott
2397 posts
Jul 22, 2009
10:08 AM
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(As you know, I am of the opinion that your ideas about "poorest judges" are more often related to a difference in the judges perception of his minimum standard for depth or quality. If you don't respect the suggested 10-foot minimum and another judge does, whose opinion is best representative of a majority of the flyers. Is it the judge,s fault or the rules ?
(Cliff, I'm not sure why you are fixated on the "suggested" 10' min. , but for the record i use it as my standard for min. scoreable)
The rules state that they are for judging ROLLERS not tumblers. Once again, does the fault lay with the judge or the rules?
(Cliff, if a judge doesn't know the difference than he has no business judging,the fault lays soley on those that chose the judge, I know that when I'm searching out a judge that I am very particular, not just any one will do.
When I am the one doing the judging I do my utmost to only score those that do it proper and represent the breed )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
1016 posts
Jul 22, 2009
10:20 AM
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Hi Cliff,
I have seen complaints year after year about the inconsistancies in judging. It practically always centers around tight judges and loose judges.
Since only big breaks and frequency really matter in the current W/C system, what a judge considers scorable is what it's all about.
But if speed, style and depth were given equal importance in scoring the big break multipliers and even minimum depth wouldn't matter as much.
When there is already an established system such as now exists any changes are going to be very difficult. There is the loyalty you refer to as well as a comfort in familiarity.
Thanks for encouraging me to continue my "crusade"..
Paul G
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Scott
2398 posts
Jul 22, 2009
10:25 AM
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Scott,
I'm impressed that you found the reference to tumbler vs real roller scoring. It seems to be a sensitive subject..!!
When will you admit that the rules are designed to reward simultaneous performance while giving no real score for speed, style and depth?
(Paul, the scoreing starts with the birds that have proper speed,style & depth , putting and building such birds into a team that hammers is difficult and a real step up into the big league's when there is a good judge at hand, this years judge was a prime example.
Paul I can assure you that a poor judge will be a poor judge regardless of the rules.)
Big breaks and frequency are what wins with the current W/C rules.
If speed, style and depth were given scores equal to simultaneous performance, roller breeders would focus their attention on producing Birmingham Rollers that truly perform to the standard.
(again Paul, we go back to good judges and what they will score verses those that don't, it it doesn't matter what the scoreing system is)
Currently we have a division between "commercial" or "competition" rollers and "individual" rollers.
(Paul, no division what so-ever , like I have said many times, when you want to pit "your" best against "my" best under your Individule scoreing system , just let me know when you are ready to step up)
This is the consequence of the scoring system, not the judges. But you are right in saying that strict judges are what is needed with todays rules.
Pensom said that kit competition was destroying the higher qualities of the breed, but he did not offer a solution. I have tried to help solve the problem for the good of the hobby as well as the breed.
Paul G
( Paul, when Pensom made that statement the only game out there was Compitition Tumber rules, not the rules of today.
But with out a doubt it can be a slippery slope when all that matters is the points accumilated, but then that would apply even to your 30 point system, I can promise you that there would be snivling over what was or wasn't scored.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2399 posts
Jul 22, 2009
10:30 AM
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Paul, when was the last time you stepped out of your neighborhood to see a birds ? Have you ever been out of LA to see birds ?
(Thanks for encouraging me to continue my "crusade"..
Paul G )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
1017 posts
Jul 22, 2009
1:28 PM
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Scott,
What I see in your statements is that the birds need only to have "proper" speed style and depth...whatever that is..
My point is that those are the most important qualities of a Birmingham Roller, and should be the focus in any evaluation of their performance.
There are clearly strains of birds bred for their "sensitivity"... a term that has just become into common usage lately. I have heard some of these strains called "disposable rollers".
Scott, didn't I see you in Visalia? The main thing I wanted to do was see Joe Embertons birds. But even if I have never been out of Los Angeles, there are hundreds of roller flyers that I have seen there.. You have no monopoly on knowing what constitutes a good spinner. In fact, I think you should raise your standard if you continue to say that the hole is not important.
Paul G
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Scott
2400 posts
Jul 22, 2009
2:13 PM
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Paul, time to quit talking, when do you want to fly ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2009 2:16 PM
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SiDLoVE
441 posts
Jul 22, 2009
2:55 PM
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Scott is Happy with his new crest at Visalia Show.
Paul and Scott have a Dissagreement about Scotts new crest bird.
Paul and Scott fight over it.
They Become best friends after a hard discusion and long fight
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2009 2:57 PM
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ezeedad
1018 posts
Jul 22, 2009
8:04 PM
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Hey Sid,
There..! That proves that I'm not chained to my loft...or computer. Only thing.. I don't think your captions are too accurate, buddy..!!
Scott,
If you could have seen the badge hen I flew last year you would hush your fuss..!!
But anyways, if I beat you or vice versa that still wouldn't fix the ol' tumbler rules you love so much.
Paul G
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1989 posts
Jul 23, 2009
11:35 AM
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Paul
NIce pics! Trying to change the existing 1-2-3 system, will be difficult. Just as the WC just changed the 1/2 second rule , other changes could be possible if taken in small steps.
I am not so sure that a judge on either extreme, too lose or too strict, is better than a fair consistent moderate judge that follows the rules. I see no honor in judging overly-strict or in judging overly-loose. If a judge's opinion is supported by the rules and if the judge's depth and quality standards are within what most men would agree with, then most would be treated fairly and under the current rules the best birds would win.
Take this year's WC scores....the kit with the best D&Q did not win. How would you address this? Frequency is an essential part of the overall picture.
However the subjectivity of different judges will forever be the main weakness.
Can you convert your 30 point system scores with 1-2-3 scores and compare the two? Or is the difference in the actual way you score?
You could put the 30 pt system up here and we could discuss it and see how it works, what is the same and what is different, what some like or dislike. Your call.
Cliff
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ezeedad
1019 posts
Jul 23, 2009
12:17 PM
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Cliff,
I agree that any changes only seem to be made by small degrees. That is why when I saw how the W/C rules were first structured I was extremely disappointed. The emphasis was still on big breaks.. and it could even be more extreme in the case of a full turn.
My point is... Why should big breaks be more important than speed? More important than depth? Than style?
I think that multipliers of 3 points should be applied each, to speed, style and depth...
Frequency will always be an important part..I think everyone will agree on that.
The 30 point system was made to evaluate the individual bird, but by applying three point multipliers to speed style and depth, the principles can be incorporated into kit competition.
Paul G
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steve49
120 posts
Jul 23, 2009
12:20 PM
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thread hijacking in progress. LOL
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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ezeedad
1020 posts
Jul 23, 2009
12:40 PM
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Sorry Steve,
If it is any consolation, we are discussing something that my book focuses on.. How to improve the hobby.
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COYOTE33
192 posts
Jul 23, 2009
1:49 PM
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i hate to tell you this scott but i've seen your birds
and paul's birds you dont have the speed that paul has.paul has been in this game long enuff to know what he is talking about. if competing will shut u up than maybe thats what you need.
coyote- just my opinion
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mkg
84 posts
Jul 23, 2009
1:57 PM
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The DVD I thought had the most helpfull information was the Norm Reed DVD and the Higgins one had some good stuff in there too.You can buy them from Tony here on roller pigeon.com
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2009 1:58 PM
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Scott
2403 posts
Jul 23, 2009
2:01 PM
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Coyote, you see that is the difference , I let others in my backyard to judge ,you been here once for 30 min during a heat wave and you want to talk shit without ever putting yourself under fire , what a smuck.
I prooved myself and my birds long before that convention fly, Do you want to put some money on that bone you want to pick ?
Not that it would happen as you talkers got nothing to put up as usual, just cheap talk and nothing else, personaly I doubt that you have a clue what you are even looking at .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2009 2:24 PM
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COYOTE33
193 posts
Jul 23, 2009
6:11 PM
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dont get upset scotty i just call it like i see it, it was hot for a lot of people that day and it wasnt just your birds performing its the style as well and from what a saw over all you need to leave Mr gomez
alone. for all that talking you do you need to show a little more humility. i wouldnt fly against you there is nothing to prove. i will say you are good at what you do, but the way you talk one would think your shit dont stink.
pick on somebody smaller than you. coyote
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donnie james
589 posts
Jul 23, 2009
8:18 PM
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hay steve give me a private email and i'll talk to you about some dvd's my club done about 15 -16 years ago donny james p.s. some of you guys already have these dvd's....................
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Scott
2407 posts
Jul 23, 2009
8:36 PM
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Humility ? any one that puts them up for the world to see will spend more times than not wondering where they went wrong ,taking humility is a large part of the game , then once in a while they will show everyone what they are made of.
And then there is the peanut gallery that we have to contend with that has never done shit who's claim to fames is pecking on the key boards knocking those that put them up for all to see.
As for the team that I flew, it is a decent team with some exceptionial individules in it that I would pit against any for quality, but the absolute cream went into the stockloft after the W/C last Spring.
As for the convention , I will take that fly , they can certainly do much better, but they certainly could have done much worse after a 25 degree swing in temps., lets put 200 people on "your" property and see how you fare !!!!!!!!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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birdman
724 posts
Jul 23, 2009
8:47 PM
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Coyote, how do your Dick Stephens birds compare to what you've seen at Scott's or Pauls ?
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COYOTE33
194 posts
Jul 23, 2009
10:12 PM
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when it comes to scott's birds you can not compare. scott has a different caliber of birds they are manly breed for kit competition, the Stephen's family and some of the old families of pensom and plona's where breed for the hobby or the sport, im not knocking scott's birds but that's what he is in, total competition. i've seen this caliper of pigeons before and its not what i like, scott just talks a lot of shit and have the time he's shooting off his mouth.
gomez birds you can compare we share some of the same thoughts and he has his old pensom family.i flew the stephens and the gomez's together at one time and i saw the same quality of speed style and performance. its just different strokes for different fokes, birdman. thanks for asking. coyote
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Scott
2408 posts
Jul 23, 2009
11:18 PM
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When can I come see your high caliber birds ?
I'm thinking in about 3 weeks, where do you live ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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COYOTE33
195 posts
Jul 24, 2009
5:48 AM
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get it right scott i did'nt say higher caliber i said different caliber and you will get to see my birds when i invite you.
coyote
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pat66
368 posts
Jul 24, 2009
7:00 AM
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Scott has a point! nobody flys their cream of the crop! They ALWAYS stock them before the BOP has lunch!
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Pat
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Scott
2409 posts
Jul 24, 2009
7:24 AM
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Coyote,now there are a few top flyers in the state that want to come along also, will 3 weeks from now work for you ? we are anxious see these fast stylist birds that you are flying
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
35 posts
Jul 24, 2009
8:03 AM
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Scott said
"And then there is the peanut gallery that we have to contend with that has never done shit who's claim to fames is pecking on the key boards knocking those that put them up for all to see"
How very TRUE .......
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COYOTE33
196 posts
Jul 24, 2009
8:10 AM
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the next time they have the convention in los angeles then all of you can come to the peanutman house, until then i dont have time for you, its a waste of time to prove something to you scott.im not trying to build a reputation like you.
coyote
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3577 posts
Jul 24, 2009
8:17 AM
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I have watch many kits fly in LA area and they are no better or worse than other kits I have watched over the years across this land.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2410 posts
Jul 24, 2009
8:31 AM
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Coyote, It has nothing to do with prooving anything, we just like to see first class birds, and you say that you have them , so we want to see them, like I said there are a few of us,all top flyers in the state, when would be a good time for you ?.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 8:44 AM
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COYOTE33
197 posts
Jul 24, 2009
9:12 AM
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never said i had first class scott just a different caliber of pigeons that's all it is and i dont think you'll like them based on your comments on this site and what i have seen in your loft. but it will be interesting to see what you have to say after you have seen my birds fly. i dont think it will happen this season because i just lose my dad to lung cancer, but i would love to have you over, i'll let you know.
coyote
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Scott
2411 posts
Jul 24, 2009
9:40 AM
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Coyote, sorry for your loss , it is a hard one.
Just curious though, you say that you have fast stylish birds, why wouldn't we like them ?
I have been around the country quite a bit and know what good birds are , they are undeniable, I don't understand why you don't think that I would like them.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 10:03 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
363 posts
Jul 24, 2009
10:21 AM
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Scott...Coyote, It has nothing to do with prooving anything, we just like to see first class birds, and you say that you have them. Who is (we? You have a mouse in your pocket?Coyote, Scotts wife must be getting tired of sowing his buttons back on his shirts due to his swollen chest from his ego.
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Scott
2412 posts
Jul 24, 2009
10:25 AM
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Myself, Joe Emberton and Dave Vang , you are invited also, my bckyard is allways open for the good bad and ugly, what about yours ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 10:32 AM
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COYOTE33
198 posts
Jul 24, 2009
10:51 AM
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man that scott is a character, infact one of those bottons hit me in the eye when i was up there :)lol
but we'll get together we have to.
coyote
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
364 posts
Jul 24, 2009
10:55 AM
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Coyote...Sorry to here of your dad.JDA
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Scott
2413 posts
Jul 24, 2009
11:14 AM
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I'm lost, show me where there "my" ego is on this thread, show me any where on any tread where I have bragged about my birds.
You won't find it because one thing that I know for a fact is you never know when someone wants to show up in your backyard to see it, and I don't care how good of birds you have or you think they are these little dummies will make you look stupid in a quick minute, that I know from personal experiance.
The problem here is if you want to tell me how fast and stylish your birds are over my best then I want to see them, the fact is if I ever see better than my best I would dump this entire family, that is a fact, it is about the birds and reality not bullshit.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 11:19 AM
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JBow
84 posts
Jul 24, 2009
11:23 AM
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Any body heard of the book called the Old Hen. I've heard that its one of the best books out there for general information Jim Bowen
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J_Star
2035 posts
Jul 24, 2009
11:46 AM
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Scott,
I don’t want to get into this conversation, but it was so funny to identify this and I just want to point it out for you as you said: “I'm lost, show me where there "my" ego is on this thread, show me any where on any tread where I have bragged about my birds”. Then you went further and said “the fact is if I ever see better than my best I would dump this entire family, that is a fact, it is about the birds and reality not bullshit.”
How do you interpret this one (lol)!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2009 11:48 AM
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