J_Star
2045 posts
Aug 03, 2009
12:46 PM
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Well, couple of years ago, I had a blue bar self cock that used leave the kit and go by himself spinning like a yo-yo with good style, speed and depth. I culled him because he was a solo player and I didn’t have the room for him. This year, I have two of them. A cock and a hen from two different mating/parents. The problem is they have the style, speed and frequency. They spin like a yo-yo and get out of the spin like nothing to it facing the same direction they started. I think they have too much frequency about three times a minute and maybe more. They used to kit like glue but once they start spinning good, they leave the kit and stay out on their own solo doing their thing. Yes, they did bump a couple of time when they are flying low to come down due to the heat and their extraordinary an hour worth of work rate. Their spin is a textbook script and on the deep side from 25 to 40 feet. The question is what do I do with them? Would I have a use for them in my loft? Have any body bred birds like this together as a project? If so, what was the result? Culling them is easy but what a wasted talent. The question is can I breed those two together as side project or is it just a waste of time? Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Jay
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BA Rollers
270 posts
Aug 03, 2009
2:19 PM
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One thing that always strikes me is how most references such as yours (not picking on you directly Jay) suggest breeding or stocking. What birds to breed from or stock sorts itself out over the long haul. When the time comes to try a bird, usually its a no brainer.
IMO, successful breeders bred for the kitbox, not the stock loft. They breed for team players that can be used for a competition kit. Their consentration isn't on pairing up birds for future stock, but rather fortifying the team. They get their breeders from their kit of proven birds.
Young birds go through all sorts of goofy metamorphisis as they progress through the juvenile state. I've had young birds do as you describe. I don't do anything special with them. They either figure it out, or eventually don't come home. If it is something that doesn't seem to get sorted out over a period of months and eventually is determined to be a distraction, its sent to the feed store. I have little patience for shinanigans from birds near or at maturity.
I've bred from "mature" birds which had kitting problems and time and time again, they bred birds that did the same thing or something equally negative. I doubt that the birds you are describing roll better than all of your current kit birds you could chose from.
If they are 09 birds, just keep flying them and see if they sort it out. If they do, keep flying them. If they don't, send them packing or hope they don't come home.
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2009 2:20 PM
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3757
1275 posts
Aug 03, 2009
3:23 PM
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Jay - This is a good time for me to speak even though most guys do not understand when I speak of individual spinners. Those birds if mature are useless. Even for individual 30 POINT competition the bird has to kit well. I would not use those birds at all no matter how well they spun because something is lacking (kitting). This is a fundamental must.
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
196 posts
Aug 03, 2009
3:45 PM
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----------I have many of the same, and do breed them together and get like kind in a good percentage. Agreeded, not for competition by virtue of depth and frequency..depends what you are breeding for..if you are going to cull, I will send you a box and shipping fees. I am not laughing...smile..I personally like individual performers with depth and frequency. Yes, it is nice if they kit well..but some of my old J.L. Smith birds are just too deep to make good kit birds after 15 minutes out of the box. By the way, I only allow this in certain of my families.
De Oppresso Liber
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2009 3:48 PM
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Colors101
46 posts
Aug 03, 2009
3:50 PM
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Although I am not a competitive flyer, there is one comment that BA Rollers made that I can't help but add my two cents to.
"IMO, successful breeders bred for the kitbox, not the stock loft."
I too believe this is what most breeders practice. I consider it a form of loft blindness. Whether or not a roller breeder flies their birds for their own personal enjoyment or for a judge with competition in mind, the emphasis is placed on what is in the kit box first and foremost. I believe this is a contributing force behind a higher percentage of strong kit birds from one loft, and a lower percentage from the next. I believe this is also a contributing force behind the fact that there IS a discrepancy among lofts and families.
Take a step back if you will and consider what the very best kit birds are being bred out of. You will not find a constant when it comes to what the best producing pair is throwing. You will find, at times, a main stock bird in some families' backgrounds. However that's most commonly buried generations back, and more of a conversation piece, rather than a true source of roller goods. Hey, we each have our own practices, resources that we rely on, and beliefs within the confinds of our own lofts.
Jay, if you've found something to build around, it may also be that you've found a couple of key birds that will be the new formula for producing more valuable kit birds. I know there's no equation that states this bird and that bird will equal this bird. But isn't that what a breed constitutes? Perhaps there has been too much focus on what your kit birds are doing, and less on what your breeders are not. I say "your", but of course I mean all of ours. I would personally commend you for giving any consideration to these two birds that stand out to you. You've certainly pointed out some strong characteristics that they have. And they stood out enough for you to careful examine them before posting a word about them. So maybe this is a question of what your other kit birds lack, rather than what these two hold.
Just my thoughts...
Colors
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
389 posts
Aug 03, 2009
4:11 PM
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Jay... as young birds go I have two of my young Ruby birds do the same thing start out kitting tight and come into roll and start pulling out of the kit and yo-yo to frequent.I had nest mates of my Patrick birds came in and were being pulled down by the two Rubys.Pulled the Rubys and they stayed with the kit tight till bought were taken by the flying sharks.So it would depends on the birds for I still have three Rubys in that kit.P.S every thing is shut down now, due to coopers.JDA
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fhtfire
2022 posts
Aug 03, 2009
4:27 PM
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Jay,
Remember the photo of that little black Ruby Hen that I posted about a year ago or so. She too did the same thing....but it was a stage. She did it when she was young....but like Brian said it was just a stage. She did it for about 3 weeks....I felt she started doing it more as a habit...so...I put her in a real young team....for about a week...so she got the better feed and flew every day....then I threw her back into the B-team...and not a problem....then to the A-team....well that bird ended up flying with team for two years...I actually pulled her in late 05 got a couple rounds off of her and then put her back into the team and she was apart of my 06 Fall fly team....then I pulled her for good and put her in the Stock loft....Well...I have three of her offspring in the stock loft and none of her offspring have done the same thing....and so far...none of her grand kids have either.
I think that it is just a phase that certain young birds go through...But I have ALOT more patience for young birds....
She started doing it at the 6 month mark..or maybe a little older....but never did it again...she was 2 years old when I pulled her for stock the last time...she was nails in the air and deep.
I am glad that I did not cull her....basically with me..they have to be a total retard for me to cull them when they are young...I just move them back in fourth to different teams and I have found that sometimes it is more of habit then anything in young birds...
Now I just culled an old bird for the same thing...but again....this is a bird that had problems over and over again...The moult will make them wierd too.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
2047 posts
Aug 03, 2009
7:09 PM
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The birds are 08...they are two seasons old. I have two and a half kits and they are doing great. The birds in both kits kit very well. As a matter of fact, I never had much heat in my family like I have now. Never in my 6 years of flying rollers seen my birds do full turns like this year...some are short but they are getting better and better. I did not breed this year because I am evaluating last years hatches before I continue with the breeders and I lose focus. This year I am really proud of the way I enhanced my birds. I used to lack the frequency...and felt that the birds are in the stiff side but not this year. Those two birds in particular are bothersome because they were kitting then they changed their mind. Every once in while they get with the kit but they can't keep up and pull on their own. When the kit turns to the left, they turn to the right and way they go on their own. It is very pleasent watching them as individuals but that is about it. I put them with the half kit that I have. Those are the ones that need more air time. I am just wondering if a side project would be worthy since I have no side projects with the birds.
Longroler, I am keeping you in mind.
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2009 7:28 PM
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Colors101
47 posts
Aug 03, 2009
7:24 PM
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Jay,
If you have the space, time, and patience, I would definitely recommend doing a "side project". I would also really like to hear what your process is and how the progress goes. The only thing we have to lose, as a hobby, is it not being tried and learned from. In your backyard, you have a controlled setting. Much better than if you were trying to reproduce something that was among more than one loft.
I say go for it!
Colors
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J_Star
2048 posts
Aug 03, 2009
7:40 PM
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I forgot to mention that the way they fly is different than the rest. They fly slowly and they extend their wings out and seams like only the tip of their wings moving up and down like if they are hovering but when they are spooked they can shit and get. They are just different than their own siblings.
Jay
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RodSD
317 posts
Aug 03, 2009
8:11 PM
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Maybe they should create individual competitions. In gymnastics you can have individual competition and there is group competition. Why not with rollers?
In one sense it makes sense for birds to roll separately. I mean if you are going to tumble by yourself, will it be safer if you tumble away from anyone else?
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1998 posts
Aug 03, 2009
8:18 PM
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Jay,
I have birds that go though a stage like that when they are developing control. I have had 20-30 foot birds go stiff at 8-10 months of age. Some get deep again, some do not. It seems like the control comes after the development of the roll in some pigeons. Either they have the character to deal with both and find a balance, or they lean one way or the other and become stiffs or out-birds to avoid the stimulation of the kit. They are more intelligent and seem to have more control than a rolldown.
A bird like that may not have a place in your comp team but if you enjoy watching it perform......? Competition takes only a small fraction of our time, the rest is watching birds perform. I train kits, not individual performers so such a bird is only a distraction for me and for the kits, but for some......? Or I bet many young people would love to have a performing roller like that one. It may lead to a new roller enthusiast somewhere down the road.
Who knows what it would breed on the right mate? I don't do it, but all these and other choices are yours to make. You pay the feed bill.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2023 posts
Aug 03, 2009
9:02 PM
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Jay,
Watch them eat....That wing beat you are talking about is the one you want....that makes them work...the other birds may be flying to fast and pulling away from the two birds that are giving you what you want.....That slow wing beat really makes them dump...that is what they call Butterfly flying...they just hover.....I tell you ...when My A-team comes out and starts doing that float like flying...I know its ROCK AND ROLL Time.........
I get that wing beat from the feed can...when They get the wheat milo mix or a little more milo...my birds fly like that....try changing the way you feed..those birds may be getting more of one grain...or just the right amount and a couple cocks are getting to much and pulling the rest of the kit.....try feeding grains seperate....or maybe hold a couple cocks under your arm while the kit is eating.....maybe a couple cocks are getting to much grub and making the rest of the kit fly fast....it sounds more like a team work thing to me....i wish I could watch them..usually the birds that stay from the kit because of lack of heart...will fly fast and stay WAY far away....anyway...you may want your kit to do what the other two birds are doing....maybe the cup is not half full but half empty....look at it from every angle..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
2050 posts
Aug 04, 2009
7:43 AM
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Cliff, how are you bud! I also train for kit performance not individual. But those two birds seem odd. The cock is off of the Andalusian Cock you gave me but his siblings are like the rest of the kit birds.
Paul, I agree with you and that is how I feed my birds to get the butter fly action from them. I have few other tricks I am going to try with those birds before giving up. Kitting to me is instinct in birds and there is a reason why they chose to perform solo. I have to the end of summer to figure them out or until I give up.
BARoller, how is your son and his cousin doing? It has been a while since the accident, would you update us on there status! Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2009 7:44 AM
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Windjammer Loft
870 posts
Aug 04, 2009
8:20 AM
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J_Star.. you've gotten some very good suggestions Iam not sure if mine even matches all the rest. I posted this same question a year or so ago. What I ended up doing was to lock the bird down for a week or so and feed her up. Now when I fly her she sticks like glue with the kit and rolls right on time with the rest of them.. Good luck in whatever you decide to do with them...
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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PAUL R.
70 posts
Aug 04, 2009
9:02 AM
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I had a bird that made the A-team as a youngster. Never bump, had good quality spin. On the following year, the bird started off good, then decided to fly over the kit,below the kit, thru the kit. Evertime it got back in the kit, the bird rolled everytime. A friend was over to watch the kit & I mentioned I was going to get rid of the bird. He said NO, that he wanted the bird . Well, sure enough, the following year he was flying a kit of birds & 1 of the birds got my attention. Was spinning faster then the other birds. Then the bird began to fly over the kit,under & thru the kit. I ask who was the bird out of. He replied ; from the bird he had gotten from me. SO, now I was convinced that if you have a bird with issues in the air, THEY WILL PASS THEM ON TO THE OFFSPRING. Get rid of the bird.
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BA Rollers
271 posts
Aug 04, 2009
12:35 PM
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Jay, my son has pretty much fully recovered. His cousin hasn't faired so well and has life-altering injuries unfortunately.
When it comes to birds as such described, particularly mature birds, the cause is usually a character issue. You can't just fix character. You might be able to breed some birds from them that are more stable, but you will still get more than you would want of birds that exhibit the same lack of character required to compliment the requirement needed for control and reasoning. One must consider that competitive fanciers don't like to dilly-dally around with trying to fix something. Generally speaking it is usually difficult enough to keep your wits straight and on target for breeding and flying the right birds to comprise a good competition kit, without having to deal with "side projects" that distract a person from the goal.
I am of the opinion that the biggest fault a fancier can make is making exceptions for something other than desired. I know, I've made some of those mistakes in the past.
The answer to the question about those birds can be summed up asking the winners of the last 10 WCs and FFs what they would do. I think the answer is obvious without even having to ask.
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J_Star
2051 posts
Aug 04, 2009
12:55 PM
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Brian, Well put. Thanks.
Jay
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COYOTE33
203 posts
Aug 04, 2009
1:46 PM
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change their feeding pattern j and see if they change their flying bad habits. dont feed them one day and see if that puts something on their mind. i think its a mental issue sometimes with our birds, i like changing attitudes.
coyote
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tou_vang
522 posts
Aug 04, 2009
3:05 PM
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i think its a waste. if it cant kit no matter how good it performs, then it will do you no good. just my opinion.
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Scott
2436 posts
Aug 04, 2009
3:31 PM
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Brian has pretty well nailed it, the roll controls them and thier weak charactor can't over ride it, they are simply culls.
Nothing normaly stays the same with such birds, due to their age it is a safe bet if you keep flying them, given time, they will completly fall apart or refuse to fly altogether.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2009 3:32 PM
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ezeedad
1029 posts
Aug 04, 2009
5:19 PM
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I've had experiences with birds that have flown above the kit and/or circled out while they were coming into the roll, but then they go back to being excellent kitting birds once they seem to "get it".
But if they are older birds I wouldn't bother with trying to work with them unless you just want more of the same. Personally, I hate to have non-kitting birds. They are too distracting. I want to watch the kit, not some misfit.
Paul G
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viper
67 posts
Aug 04, 2009
8:04 PM
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I tried it when I was getting started like Brian said they bred more of the same no kit keepers they drove me nuts culled them and would not do it agin I would bred from 1 pair before I would try it agin.Have little problem know with kitting.Blake
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macsrollers
168 posts
Aug 04, 2009
8:16 PM
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I agree with the consensus that the 2 birds are culls, based on their age. I have tried working with a few of these project birds and for awhile they may change their behavior but when it comes down to it, especially on competition day, their true colors will show through. I have a hen that I stocked that is an absolute blur. One of the fastest rollers I have had the pleasure to see. But she would kit about 70% of the time. So I figured not a complete fault and tried breeding it. I few birds did OK but the ones that spun like her showed the same fault as her. So I no longer have the hen as I tried her on several proven cocks and the fault eventually showed up in the youngsters. I got rid of the hen. Projects besides your main breeding program are tough, but I do work with my color projects because they are fun and I have made good(not great) progress on them. A fault is a fault, no matter how many other positive factors the bird possesses. Why add that to your program? Nice post Jay. Thanks
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J_Star
2052 posts
Aug 05, 2009
5:16 AM
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List, I hear you load and clear. I have the same feeling as all of you toward those two. The summer is coming to close real soon and they will be going away by then if they did not correct their issue. I was looking for the word "Character" fault to affirm my belief. However, I thought that some people might have used those kinds of birds for projects but appear to be that their project failed. Then why should I bother and waste my time. To sum up this post, I would say that those two birds are “Wasted Talent.” And what a fregging waste indeed.
Jay
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