winwardrollers
277 posts
Aug 06, 2009
11:11 AM
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How do you guys access if the muscles are strong or weak on a roller?
bwinward
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1287 posts
Aug 06, 2009
12:00 PM
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I always thought drooping wing tips were an indicator of a week back.
Thom
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fhtfire
2028 posts
Aug 06, 2009
12:27 PM
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First off...Droopy wings are not a sign of weak back muscles....I have seen birds with droopy wings tear it up and have strong back muscles.
To test or feel the muscle strength on a bird I do two things...I check both the back and chest muscles....I actually feel that the Chest Muscles are as important or more important then the back...I focus on both..but my biggest focus for speed is the chest....and wing position....is the back...
Ok..on checking...I hold the bird in my hand...(check Back)...I hold the last two Primarys....and pull down on the wing...making the bird want to pull away from me...you can feel how strong the bird is..by how much pressure is being pulled back...to check the chest....I take three fingers and put it under the wing...right at the joint in the middle of the wing...and kind of push up lightly...the bird will then push down against my hand....
I have done this to all my A-team and B-team birds....I have found that the back is about the same as all across the board.....but the chest is ALOT stronger on the birds that are rockets.
I feel the chest is the most important for speed...I have noticed in my birds when I started moving toward the chest..the birds got fast....by ALOT....now....the chest is a push muscle....not a pull muscle...the down stroke on the wing is the POWER stroke....the more power...the more speed....that simple.....the back muscles will then whip the wing back up fast...but a strong back will whip it up fast and further back..making you A or H pattern.....if the back is week...there is not enough strength to bring it all the way back and the bird will short shank it...meaning it is now an X or axle roller.....It is funny...because I was just talking with someone today about the chest and back...
We talk about apple body...an apple is ROUND and fits in your hand....a round chest has MUSCLE!! with Muscle come power and strength...with power and strength comes speed.....with a strong back comes a quick snap out and a nice style.....the strong chest also gets the bird back to the kit......when the bird pops out...you can watch the down stroke of the wings when it starts to head back to the team...power to get back...
Anyway..I pull down on the wing from the furthest point and let the bird pull back....(test the back)....push up against the wing at the joint....with the wing bent and resting in you hand..slight pressure the bird will push back.....
You cant go by how the muscle feels....that is a false...and make believe way to assume power....just because you have a little more muscle or the muscle feels hard does not mean it has power...the odds are up...but the way muscles work it is all about the muscle fibers....fast twitch and slow twitch.....for example...My brother is 6'5 240.....and lifts weights....I am 6' 188 and I can out curl him...his muscles are bigger....but mine have more power..and it all has to do with the fibers...etc etc....so by look and feel you would think he has more....but when you test by actually using resistance....I WIN!!...LOL
rock adn ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1288 posts
Aug 06, 2009
1:13 PM
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Hey Paul, I'm not being smart but would seriously like to know. What causes droopy wings? I'm trying to learn and unlearn if my information is wrong.
Thom
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VetFlyer
5 posts
Aug 06, 2009
5:33 PM
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The way I was taught to check the back is to hold the bird in both hands with the head facing you and your thumbs on the back. Aply pressure with your thumbs, if the tail drops the back is fine, if the tail lifts up the bird has a weak back. The tail is very important part of a birds "Brakes". A bird with a weak back can not brake out of the roll cleanly and will have a tendency to hit when landing.
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fhtfire
2029 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:04 PM
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Paul,
My mistake on calling the supracoracoideus a back muscle...it is located on the upper breast but is not part of the Pectoral muscle..or breast. It is its own muscle...I was calling them back muscles to explain the push pull movement..they supra muscle is the antagonist to the Pec. I was trying to use it as an example as a back muscle...now that I re=read my post..I can see that I did not explain it right...and the muscles on the shoulders of the bird or back control the head movement and the spine....I dont thing they control the tail....The back muscles on a pigeon are kind of like a shoulder to me.....anyway....you are right.
The downstoke is what I was trying to show that it was important...and is often overlooked.
Thom.
Maybe Paul can answer this but I was told by an old homer guy that it was tendons and ligaments that are attached in a different locations on the bone...and just makes it droop....that is what I was told....and I have seen droopy winged birds tear it up..so that blows the weakness theory out of the water.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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RodSD
324 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:25 PM
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Yeah, the chest muscle is what the pigeon uses to move its wings. The bigger muscle, I think, is for the downward stroke.http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/adapt/bird.htm
Another link:http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/fuel.cfm
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 7:27 PM
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winwardrollers
279 posts
Aug 06, 2009
7:26 PM
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I would have to say that droopy wing birds can roll with the best of them..I have had a few droopy wing birds that worked the best in the kit day in and day out...I don't have an answer of the droop of the wing other than the bird is tired and doesn't have the contitution to hold wings up....don't these muscle get stronger when used?
Like Fire Fighter Paul I look for birds with good chest and shoulder muscles...But back muscle I have had a hard time with...simple pushing or feeling don't tell the story for me.
Some great posts by the way.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 7:27 PM
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JMUrbon
738 posts
Aug 06, 2009
8:24 PM
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Like Brad and Paul stated. I have seen and bred many great birds that had droopy wings. You may not know this but Dave Hendersons foundation hen had droopy wings from the day she was born. That hen along with many of her progeny had droopy wings. My 904 cock had droopy wings also. Some say its an indication of a weak back and I say hog wash. That is somebody repeating what somebody told them and nothing more. Joe
Also vetflyer, The tail aids in stopping but the primary brakes on a roller are the secondaries. If ou want to test this out take your best bird and pull all of the tail feathers. I guarentee the bird will still roll and stop as iff not even missing the tail. They just look a bit funny. LOL
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 8:36 PM
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Scott
2438 posts
Aug 06, 2009
9:12 PM
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Why do some birds droop their wings only after working hard ?
Why do many old birds wings drop with age ?
I don't know these answers, that is why I am asking , personaly I don't like birds with droopy wings nor would I breed them, but that is just me.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3591 posts
Aug 07, 2009
3:39 AM
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Many think that the Oriental Roller was part of the make up of the Birmingham Roller. Could some of the cause of the bird wanting to carry the wings below the tail be a result from the mangle of chomozomes producing this phenominom now and then?
I have had'em; don't like'em; don't keep'em; don't breed'em...............but I haven't been flying well either.
I think the ones that droop thier wings after working hard are the ones you should keep. "Working hard" trumps most things.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3507 posts
Aug 07, 2009
7:25 AM
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My foundation cock 903, is known to droop his wings in the loft or while posing for pictures, thing is I can't say I recall any offspring showing it.
Now after a good hard kit performance, I will see many kits birds land with the drooping wings and after a little rest, carry them back over the tail. hmmm
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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J_Star
2064 posts
Aug 07, 2009
7:54 AM
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I have a ’04 cock when he was a youngster had droopy wings but after matured, he carries his wings up all the time. I have a ‘07 hen flies with a kit that has a bad case of droopy wings where the primary feathers are not tucked together all the times. Her wings touch the ground when she walks around and you could count the primary feathers. Her parents do not have droopy wings and not a hint of it. The reason I kept her for that long is because she is capable of twizling, plate rolling, dish ragging, wing twitching (but exit the roll from the position she started rolling) and a textbook performance with speed. She is from 5 to 60 feet deep. All that performance is depending on her mood. I though she is fun to have around as long as she is not disrupting the kit make up.
Jay
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Scott
2439 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:03 AM
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Exactly Tony, that is because the muscles are taxed and in a weakend state.
(Now after a good hard kit performance, I will see many kits birds land with the drooping wings and after a little rest, carry them back over the tail. hmmm)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1290 posts
Aug 07, 2009
9:16 AM
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Thanks Paul, Sometimes it's harder to unlearn then to learn. :)
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3508 posts
Aug 07, 2009
10:21 AM
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Scott, where you been? Did you ever get that email I sent you?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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J_Star
2065 posts
Aug 07, 2009
12:33 PM
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And here all along I thought he stayed out due to the email you sent him (lol).
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3510 posts
Aug 07, 2009
12:35 PM
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LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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ezeedad
1031 posts
Aug 07, 2009
4:20 PM
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Paul F,
I found a good explanation of bird muscles..
"Most birds have approximately 175 different muscles, mainly controlling the wings, skin, and legs. The largest muscles in the bird are the pectorals, or the breast muscles, which control the wings and make up about 15 - 25% of a flighted bird’s body weight. They provide the powerful wing stroke essential for flight. The muscle ventral (underneath) to the pectorals is the supracoracoideus. It raises the wing between wingbeats. The supracoracoideus and the pectorals together make up about 25 – 35% of the bird's full body weight."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_anatomy#Muscular_system
Apparently the back muscles don't effect tail movement... I was mistaken... I found an explanation online at:
http://www.innerbird.com/pelvic_girdle/pelvic_girdle.html
"The tail of a modern bird is a very complex structure. The fan of tail feathers is mounted in a flexible bulb attached to a pygostyle at the end of a short series of free vertebrae. A special set of muscles, controlled but complex neurological links to the wings, squeezes the bulb to change the shape of the tail fan.
The muscles that control the position of the tail are attached to the pubic bones and the hips. The width of the bird’s hips facilitates fine control. The muscles are short and attach to the vertebrae at steep angles so that only small contractions are needed to move the tail.
But the back muscles don't affect the spine because the spine of birds is fused.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 4:26 PM
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ezeedad
1032 posts
Aug 08, 2009
10:10 AM
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Yeah Ralph,
The two types of muscles are what make the difference between white meat and dark meat in chickens and turkeys.
They have dark meat, which is the red muscle, in their legs. They mainly walk and run and use their legs more than their wings. But when they want to get a burst of speed they use the white muscles to fly a short distance. They can't fly far though, because the white muscles tire quickly.
Red muscles have a lot more mitochondria, which supply energy to the muscles. They also have a lot more cappilaries supplying blood.
Birds that fly a long time have more red muscle in their breasts.
Paul G
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gotspin7
2498 posts
Aug 08, 2009
11:20 AM
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Ganga, great read! Thanks for sharing... ---------- Sal Ortiz
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gotspin7
2499 posts
Aug 08, 2009
11:20 AM
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Gang, great read! Thanks for sharing... ---------- Sal Ortiz
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3253 posts
Aug 08, 2009
2:34 PM
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Paul good point in the use of red muscle in the chicken and turkey To give you an idea how fast the red muscle twitches too lets look at the hummingbird its breast muscle is entirely made of red muscle when in flight the wings seen a mere blur so imagine thats nothing compare to the white muscle which twitches more rapidly but tires out quicker as what you pointed out more cappilaries supplying blood in the red muscle ..
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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