speedball
541 posts
Aug 15, 2009
5:32 PM
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i would like to ask my brothers in america what they would say if there was no hole and the birds roll at the same velocity? i do admit the bird with a hole through does indeed look preety. i have seen both types. i believe if the bird is wrapped up tight and correct the hole does not show. i may be wrong but i would like other opinions on the subject.
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Scott
2471 posts
Aug 15, 2009
5:41 PM
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Speed, it all evolves around type and balance
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2009 5:44 PM
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Ty Coleman
669 posts
Aug 15, 2009
6:09 PM
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speedball, I pay no attention to the hole, I prefer the blurr. But to each his own.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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michael salus
43 posts
Aug 15, 2009
6:25 PM
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Speedball , I like a perfect H and hole from the side. The cleaner they both are the better. I think it is the only way to tell if the bird is balanced. The more distinct, the better the quality. Don't care for the blur. I like to see a clean form. I don't think speed is the defining factor, I'm more interested in balance and style. You can have speed and not have style, but you can't have style without speed. This is just my own opinion. Good question, should be a good discussion.
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MJ
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Ty Coleman
671 posts
Aug 15, 2009
6:55 PM
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Mj. You are hitting on a good point. I have always said the Jac's and several other family's have great style but lack velocity. I reckon this will be like the difference between classical music and heavy metal. There will be no wrong answers.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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michael salus
45 posts
Aug 15, 2009
7:26 PM
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Scott, Mine don't either, but that's what I'm working on....lol
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MJ
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Scott
2473 posts
Aug 15, 2009
7:28 PM
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Mike, good post, I'm with you , I will take balance and style over sheer speed,and I also want the true H wing, most so called "blurs" are fast birds with poor balannce,if the balance is there the wings show.
By the way my birds don't show the hole though.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2474 posts
Aug 15, 2009
7:34 PM
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Mike I have found that even those that tout it so much don't have it either , in fact I have had nore than a few say they saw the hole standing under my birds, and my only thought is "that aint it" .
(Scott, Mine don't either, but that's what I'm working on....lol )
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MJ
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2009 7:34 PM
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ezeedad
1036 posts
Aug 15, 2009
7:46 PM
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Clean beautiful style showing the hole...BEAUTIFUL..!!
Blur Speed.....AWESOME..!!
Both Together...THE ULTIMATE...!!
Paul G
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
413 posts
Aug 15, 2009
7:56 PM
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The only hole I have been getting lately is when the cooper rips one out of the birds middle. Lost another today.JDA
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Ty Coleman
673 posts
Aug 16, 2009
6:51 AM
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Scott, I have a axle roller that has the velocity of a blurr but has poor style, you can not see this birds wings because of it's speed but the outline of the bird in the spin is axle, that is not what I am refering to this bird is a cull that I like to watch spin. I also have several high H style birds with poor velocity which are nice to watch on occasion but that is not my type of birds. When I refer to a blurr it is a high velocity bird with the wings not being able to be seen which would be a H style bird. Just my opinion.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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michael salus
47 posts
Aug 16, 2009
7:57 AM
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The reason I lean towards the H and hole is because the bird looks like it is doing it without too much effort and that is where balance comes in. Most " blurs " always look like they are struggling. The word "blur" means indistinct form and thats not what I like to see in the air.The no hole theory came to be around 20 years or so ago and seems to be what most want now, but years ago a high quality bird had to show the H and hole to be considered ideal. Who ever started this must have not been able to produce the "ideal" and said the blur was the way to go. If you had two kits that had 15 birds breaking at the same time, going 20 to 30 feet and one kit was blurs and the other was H's and hole's ,what kit do you think most would be talking about.It's alot harder to produce hole rollers and there is reason they are rare. I have to go by my eye and my eye says he H is more pleasing to look at. Again, just my opinion. ... Wish I could fly my birds, but I'm on lockdown.
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MJ
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Scott
2477 posts
Aug 16, 2009
8:15 AM
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Ty, if the balance is there you should see the wings, the better the balance and the faster they are the more the wings appear as just thin straight lines.
As for axel, honestly I can't stand to even watch them,for me it is like someone running their fingers across a chaulk board.
Mike, I will take the H wing as long as the balance and speed is there, honestly I could care less about the hole though, besides to gauge quality you need to be under them not on the side of them.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bill C
428 posts
Aug 16, 2009
3:52 PM
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I'm not sure everyone is on the same page as to what qualtiy is. I would say style is the wing position. H an better being the best position. Quality being the straight in roll, kits tight and comes out clean and returns to the kit. also with good wing position add to it.
Veloscity speaks for is self being "FAST".
I dont know if balance is the body type? But off course the apple body is best with a slightly longer tail than the wings being 3/4 of an inch or at least 1/2 inch longer than the tail.
Cobbie birds can roll good but will lack the hole in the roll except for a few that are very fast.
I think, I prefer the fast veloctiy as most important, except in X rollers. Velocity is the absoulely hardest asset to add to a bird if it is not in the family already, or strain already from the parrents or grand parrents.
Nobody has a kit of 20 blurs. they are few and far between with only one or two a year that pop up in most good families.
But there are definately some birds or kits with 5-10 fast velocity spinners. Most likely H or better if they look good, otherwise you can see the wings or wing tips going up and down and then you lack velocity unless its the X roller which like Scott said just doesnt look good no matter what you fly it with.
We really have to set the premis on what is balance and style and Quality to really understand if we are not agreeing or saying a simular thing but different ways. BIll C
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harrison
1189 posts
Aug 16, 2009
3:57 PM
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As you guys no I havent had birds for long and the H and blur /hole is somthing I have never realy lookd for in my birds.
If they rap up nice and tight and spin towards the ground with good speed and controle and pull out at the correct time then I am happy with that.
I must admitt I have a little grizz hen that you can see a hole througth her when she his rolling but appart from that I havent noticed any H ect...
But you can be sure when I let my birds out tommorow I will be paying close attenshion to the way they are rolling.
As I have said in the past these last two years have been a great learning curv for me and reading the posts you guys put up have helpt me along.
Are these Styles of rolling easy to notice or do you need to look realy hard to see them.
yours in roll
Harrison
H.K.R ROLLER LOFT HULL UK
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harrison
1190 posts
Aug 16, 2009
4:02 PM
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when you mention the axel roll is that the helicopter roll?
Were the bird rolls sideways?
I did have a lavender cock when I was young and thats what he did.
Untill one day he did it straight into a house chimney pot and broke is poor kneck.
He would always drift to the side instead of coming down .
Pritty crazy to say the least.
harrison.
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Bill C
430 posts
Aug 16, 2009
5:30 PM
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Harrison, the X roller uses its wings just like the X without going all the way up or down when rolling.
The H roller, goes all the way straight up and straight down. ( ) is good most call it A roller as the wing tips almost touch or do touch at the top.
Most guys think they have H rollers when actually they have birds that Have H on top but the wings do not go all the way down like an H on the bottom.
If you guys were to look closely at the birds on U tube or even BMC videos you will see some in slow motion. Very few birds will have H or wings going straight down at the bottom. There are a few though and BMC does have a few. I would say the best of us only have a few. They do not have to have velocity but if they do That is the Blur rollers that do that. The letter A really shows better what most of us have in our competiton kits flying now. or worse. ( the letter A at the bottom with the letter H on top is really what I mean that most call an H roller)
If you get a good pair of binoculars and watch the birds one at a time roll you can catch what the wings are doing. You only see them close down low for a few minutes and plus they may be holding back the roll until they get to a safe distance, then they will do what they do best.
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2009 5:34 PM
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pigeon pete
362 posts
Aug 16, 2009
5:48 PM
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I have always prefered the birds that touch the wing tips at the top, the lower half of the image forming the lower half of the A. This same bird when viewed from directly below should show the H pattern.
I have seen videos of rollers that seem to stroke the wings twice per revolution. The vid was slomo, but I would imagine such a bird could show an H or () from below and from the front. If a birds wing position is in syncroniastion with the rotation, i.e it touches it's wings at the same point of the roll each time it goes over, it will show a clean image, be it H or X or whatever. If it touches wings at different points of the rotation it will not show a clean shape, it will be a blurred image. Some rollers will go into synch and out again and it is so obvious when they hit it right.
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winwardrollers
285 posts
Aug 16, 2009
6:03 PM
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Bill
"Velocity is the absoulely hardest asset to add to a bird if it is not in the family already,..."
I have seen plenty birds with the H style that are fun to watch but Lack the speed that the A frame bird has..I have been able to see the Hole on H style easiest simply because the wings floats from the top to bottom at a slower rate..Birds with greater velocity stroke more times per roll closing off the hole. I like both types of birds myself...H style being more fluid in the roll were as an A framer is more violent in the roll.
H birds seem to indure longer and hold up were as A framer takes more wear and tear.
After watching the U-tube post of rollers sloppy coming down with wing flipping and slapping and listening to guys oooh...aaah very few have seen or know what Velicity means...let alone good wing stroke.
SpeedBall... you can't see the hole on a axle roller because the wings are in the road...the Hole is easiest to see with smooth rolling birds that have a slow wing speed. the birds have to fly to the side of you instead of over head.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2009 6:32 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3607 posts
Aug 16, 2009
6:49 PM
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I want the bird to be very flexible and so fast that the hole is filled in. What you see will be just a ball.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2009 6:50 PM
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Bill C
431 posts
Aug 16, 2009
7:58 PM
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Not to pick on you Nick, but probably most would agree with you but I dont believe that a bird can roll so fast there is no hole. The slow birds have no hole and the faster ones have a hole or hole with a cone to it. Like the Satalite huricane pictures or like a comma on this web site ( , ) except a comma with a solid hole and then a tail. I have seen this plenty of times.
I believe the blur roller is the fastest of them all but still will have a hole though it might be a smaller hole as aposed to a larger hole.
There is nothing in the way of the middle of the bird rolling fast unles its feet were out and even then it would not be a solid blur in the middle. I suspect when you see a bird roll fast and it has not hole it is because it is up too high and you have to be right across from a bird at the right angle to see the hole. Same as when looking right below a roller to see the wing position or straight head on with the bird in the air.
Take a tire with spokes, as you spin it slow you see the spokes but as it goes fast the spokes disapear, so the feet I think would disapear if they were in the hole. But on the roller there is nothing in the middle so we see the alusion of a hole because of the velocity of the bird spinning round and round with its wings going up and down so fast you see the donut with a hole in it. At least that is the way I view them in my mind.
Brad showed how the axel roller has the wings in the road. That is a good example of why you would not see a hole on that kind of bird.
Pete that is interesting if they syncranise and thier wings touch or meet at the same time in the roll. I have never heard that before. That would be nice to see in a real good slow mo picture. I would really like to have one of these news camera guys who film slow motion in races and jets or foot ball replays in slow motion to film our rollers someday. We all need to find a guy like that and get him into the game of rollers. Bill C
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quickspin
1061 posts
Aug 16, 2009
11:41 PM
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Every one has different opinions on what they think is the best one. We might be thinking of the same style but some might see it different than others. As for me I think the H style has perfect balance but for me the short A seems cleaner. Speed has nothing to do with style and many confuse this.
As for a X or wider wing no matter how fast it's going I will never stock it. Now for the blurs I have seen some but they are off balance that is why they look like a blur. No matter how fast it's going you can see the style if you look in the right place. You need to look at the birds facing you when rolling.
Now if some one breeds a bird like this one showing the hole I take it. Many roll and show the hole but is actually a backwards C or a big O not the tight 0 which actually is a illusion.
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Ball Bearing Roller Loft
I.C.R.C
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bman
709 posts
Aug 17, 2009
6:04 AM
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I get a lot of high X and some H type.The H appear smoother to me if both have the same velocity.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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pigeon pete
363 posts
Aug 17, 2009
8:45 AM
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Just a couple of points.
The wings do not obstruct the hole because they dont flap up to the level of ther back, unless it's one of those axle rollers I've heard about.
The feet cannot obstruct the hole unless the bird has feet fastened to it's back.
If you make a wooden model of a roller in the position of the one on the image above, and draw or paint the pigeon image, leave enough wood so the area above the back is white and not cut away.
make a hole in the wood around an inch above the back and fix it on a wooden plastic or metal rod,
Spin this model and you will see how the hole is formed. Move the skewer away from the back a little (you may need several models) and you will see a bigger hole.
If you put the rod through at back level, you will not get a hole because the bird is not rotating in a large enough circle to form it. If you dont revolve it fast enough a complete hole will not form.
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2009 8:50 AM
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speedball
542 posts
Aug 17, 2009
9:57 AM
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a bird rolling with wings high up and at high velocity creates the tiny hole.
the axle style roller rolling at g-force creates the tiny fierce ball roller.
at those speeds the axles blend to the ball to give the illusion.
test the hypothosis if you dont believe me. or maye you dont have the superior g-force in question. lol!
"it sounds like the tappits on a car engine when he puts one in" speedball!
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2009 1:51 PM
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speedball
543 posts
Aug 17, 2009
10:07 AM
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oh and if any of these 2 tip axis a tiny fraction as they go into a roll, they will look like a blown tyre flapping about. he he he he he!
"it has to be seen if it is to be known" speedball!
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Bill C
433 posts
Aug 17, 2009
8:40 PM
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Pigoen Pete, I might be mis-understanding you. You say the wings do not flap to the level of their back?
But they do. The bird arches its head and tail just like they do when they are young and doing the swan dive with out flapping their wings. They arch and drop at the begining right.
Then as mature rollers do, they arch and flat their wings all the way up and all the way down if H style. So the secondaries would go over the back a little.
They are arched like a cresent moon sort of with their wings going up and down each rotation right! there is a space between the rump neaer the tail and up to the arched head where the wings do not cover. THis air space is where we see the whole.
As the birds spins with velocity the triangle shape with a small opening to the sky is there but as they spin it goes around so fast that it makes the air space shaped like a the letter U filled with blue sky look like a O hole. Only a fast bird would show the hole clean, other wise it will look like a O> or worse. Also with the slow rollers or tumblers you can definately see the wings going up and down but with the best spinners the wings tend to disapear, thus we have the blur roller. Would you agree with that?
look at the spinning bird above in motion. That is really what the bird looks like in a still picture, in a moving picture it is flapping its wings up and down with each rotation. Right. ( except I do not have them bluring out the way the motion picture has it) Bill C
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2009 8:41 PM
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pigeon pete
365 posts
Aug 19, 2009
10:37 AM
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Bill,
I think there are many different ways that rollers and tumblers roll and some may do a full stroke up and down, but in the films I took years ago, and in slomo videos I've seen, they didn't lift the wings above the level of the back, unless I am interpreting what I'm seeing wrong. Even with modern videos you can seldom get really good slomo to the point where you can really analyise the roll.
Some old timers in the 80's (top famous flyers) told me they did a full stroke and did it once every revolution but I didn't believe it.
Why? because it didn't make ant sense to me then.
If a bird had it's wings below its belly when it was upside down (and we've seen plenty of stills of this position) the wings would be up in the air.
If it then did a full wing stroke so that when it was the right way up it's wings were up above its back, they would still be in the air and you would only get the top half of your famous H X or A shape depending upon your alphabetical preferences.
They do stroke, but I think it's more of a cirular motion down and forwards like an oar sculling.
Watch a roller landing and it sculls in the manner I'm describing. It flaps its wings, but when it's hovering to land it's wings don't often go above the back, rather they meet somewhere infront of it's face.
I'm not adamant about this but until I see eveidence to the contrary then my guess makes more sense to me.
But maybe not to everyone else,lol
Pete.
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pigeon pete
366 posts
Aug 19, 2009
10:40 AM
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Oh, and if they did a full stroke up and down we would see the wings sticking straight out to the side at some point and from some angle, especially with the slower rollers.
Pete
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
425 posts
Aug 19, 2009
11:59 AM
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pete.... I,am with you a lot of what they are filming are slow or poor rollers and many have not seen speed in a true balanced roller.Its hard to find such rollers but they are out there. JDA
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Bill C
434 posts
Aug 19, 2009
10:04 PM
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When you have time go to Dave Henderson web page, you can get there from the nbrc online site and you will see a still pictures of a roller with its wings staight up above its head.
A poor video might not show it so well but still pictures wont line on wing postion. I see the wings going down way more often than straigt up on U-Tube videos. Also BMC has some slow motion videos that really show some good spinners and he slowed it down and you will see some of them with wings up and down in different frames. If I was good with pictures I would post one on here to show they do go straigt up on the H rollers. Bill C
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Bill C
435 posts
Aug 19, 2009
10:15 PM
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I went to Daves site and I could not find it anymore. I asked him why? Maybe i will come up with another one for you to see. Just saving you time from going to his site where the picture is no longer their. I might borrow my sisters expensive camera and spend a day taking photos. see ya Bill
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PAUL R.
83 posts
Aug 20, 2009
10:37 AM
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I spoke with guy who raises homers and he mentioned that he can tell by looking at the feathers on the wing and tail, he could tellyou if the bird was breed for short distance or long distance. With that said, I believe that the type of feather combined with the correct keal, wing position will give you a faster pigeon and the hole.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3611 posts
Aug 20, 2009
11:47 AM
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Here are 2 Ruby Rollers captured in the roll:
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Tony Chavarria
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harrison
1196 posts
Aug 20, 2009
1:15 PM
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Hi TONEY.
So what would these be classd as.
An H and a BLUR?
thanx harrison
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3613 posts
Aug 20, 2009
2:45 PM
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Harrison, I would say you have it about right.
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Tony Chavarria
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speedball
544 posts
Aug 20, 2009
3:53 PM
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i can only see 1 pigeon. its nearly tumbling over. how is the other a pigeon?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3615 posts
Aug 20, 2009
4:49 PM
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Flying squirrel...
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Tony Chavarria
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