Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3631 posts
Aug 27, 2009
8:47 AM
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This thread (Blog) is to provide a ongoing “peek” into my loft where I will share insight, views and experience as it relates to the care, management and development of my breeding stock, kit birds, and a competition ready A-Team.
Underlying all of this is my desire to first and foremost - breed and fly rollers that: “roll with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball” , lest in the effort to fly in competition I should lose my way and be tempted to fly shorter but more frequent birds.
I welcome any positive and constructive comments or questions that will be useful and informative.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3632 posts
Aug 27, 2009
8:47 AM
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For my first entry, I will discuss 3 kit birds (2 late hatches from 2007 and 1 09 young bird) that are giving me trouble. I have 2 late hatches from 2007 that did not get into regular training until they were about 5 months old or so. I worked with them and some others. After struggling initially to get them to fly, after awhile, I could see the rolling and flying appeared to be stunted but I wanted to observe if there could be any improvement if they were flown regularly over a span of time?
On a typical day these 2 birds will fly the time and appear to be just fine, then they have those off days and all they want to do is circle the loft from tree top level and land early. I have moved them around from team to team and this has not helped them keep things in gear.
One has developed a lazy flying pattern and roll, the other rolls 20 feet with velocity and style. They both seem to tire well before they ought to and I can see the negative impact on some of the birds that fly with them. So rather than work with these 2 birds any longer, it is now time to end the experiment and eliminate them from my stock.
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As for the 2009 young bird, been flying it for about 2 weeks, this bird has to be flagged back up as it starts to circle the loft to land early. Its young kit mates have no problem flying the time and staying with the young team. It is just this one bird from this group giving me problems. This bird flys in a desperate manner and looks “spooked” a lot. I can see other birds influenced by it and break away from the team to follow it.
I have fed this bird up a bit and still, it seems after about 20 minutes, all it wants to do is land. I have flagged it everyday to keep it going no less than 30 minutes but the moment I walk away from the kit box, it lands and will usually drag a bird or two with it.
I am eliminating this bird from stock today.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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bman
716 posts
Aug 27, 2009
9:19 AM
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For me I can usely trace a problem bird to some sort of physical occurence. Like you said a late start maybe early medical problems, some one occurence is the cause. On the other hand I had a bird last year that I started late like yours. Turn into a good performer but questionable kitter. This year I started her with a bunch of weanlings to show them where the feed and water is. Well suddenly now she is a team performer,never out of the kit,in on every break. It was like I had to start her all over again and she got it right this time.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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fhtfire
2059 posts
Aug 27, 2009
9:22 AM
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Tony,
the two that are acting up....are culls...but it is the moult too...I usually dont freak to much during the moult.......but if the moult is over and they do that....cull them....they have issues....that simple....why mess with birds that are not doing it all right...the rest of the team is aok right....
On the bird not wanting to fly....you get lots of chances in my loft as a young bird....but what you are explaining would not last in my loft....I dont cater to birds that have 'issues"...I can fill the perch that quick with one that does not.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1386 posts
Aug 27, 2009
3:57 PM
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Tony, First, kudos for balls, because you are man enough to stand or fall on merit!
Second, if this is to be on going? It needs it's own button so not to get lost. in daily traffic.
Lastly, My timing in the first years breeding season could not have been worse. I created situational problems in my over exuberant desire to see my young birds in the air. Timing for breeding,raising and flying kit birds is crucial! My hurry up, got in the way and slowed the whole process. If I had but one thing to say to a new fancier, it would be, "Patience!" and that is the hardest of all. :)
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3633 posts
Aug 27, 2009
4:25 PM
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Thanks guys for the feedback. Paul and Ron, I did look at the young bird and sure enough it has a primary growing back on each wing. I can see why it flys for a while then want to land. I saw another young bird like this today and am going to pull both for about a week to let the feathers grown out. The other I mentioned were eliminated!
Thom, thanks for the support. Hopefully I can demonstrate the daily grind and joy of flying and breeding rollers and perhaps a few might even benefit from it. Take care...
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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roller heaven
85 posts
Aug 27, 2009
4:26 PM
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Tony put up a video of your rollers so I can see them rollers in action.
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fhtfire
2063 posts
Aug 27, 2009
4:45 PM
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Tony,
I have the same thing happen to me..and I have to constantly remind myself that they are in the moult...when those last feathers are growing out and in blood..that is what they will do.....So good choice...now when the moult is over and they do that....well..cull them...I have a feeling they will be just fine...now that other bird....I would have done the same thing.
rock and ROLL
paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1387 posts
Aug 27, 2009
5:00 PM
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Tony, This is an excellent idea. I know I will learn as I have from the board but now I will have a support system for Ruby's in particular.
Thanks
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3634 posts
Aug 27, 2009
5:00 PM
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roller heaven, I will eventually, I only have a digital camera that takes video, but the problem is that it does not allow me to adjust the focus once recording begins. I will try though...
Paul, I have a habit of being too impatient with problem birds, like you said it is easy enough to replace them problem birds with new ones.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Hector Coya
548 posts
Aug 27, 2009
8:20 PM
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Tony,i bred a youngster that was weak from the get-go,it tool way longer to wean and it looked scrouny,But when i pulled it out and put it in the youngster kit box,to my surprize it stud his own.
To my surprize this young started to fly with my youngsters,by age it was way older.
The funny thing about this bird is that all his feathers have a shock mark,meanning it whent through stress that coused the feathers to grow weak at some point.
not that its in the kit,all the flight feathers,primary and secondary are broken,im amazed at how it can stay in the air.
My point is that this weak bird with all its flights broken can stay in the kit,and struglling to stay up,can do it,why put up with a bird that lands early with one primary flight missing.I get those too,and this little guy has shown me that theres no excuse,from now on if they dont go up,molting or not,i will remember this little scrouny bird and realize if they want to fly they will do what ever it takes to fly.If they cant stay up with all flight feathers,there not worth keeping.
Hector Coya-SGVS
Heres a picture i just took of his wings,
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2009 8:37 PM
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harrison
1227 posts
Aug 28, 2009
3:00 AM
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I have a check self that is the last bird I bread and is still squeeking and not flying as yet.
The thing is in the above post you said about (SHOCK MARKS)
well this bird has that along its tail feathers.
I will post picture soon.
harrison.
Every post and day on here is a day of learning for me.
harrison.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3636 posts
Aug 28, 2009
4:49 AM
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Hector, I hear you man, but to me, there is a difference between 2 birds where one is only working harder to stay in the air and where the other molting bird has 2 pain points that are aggravated on each and every wing sweep. After several minutes of this, each wing flap becomes pure torture.
Think about it, a toothache on a big brawny man will put him out of action faster than you can finish a cup of coffee. Your bird is flying because he is a bird trying to keep up with the the flock. He doesn't know his feathers are deformed. RUN FOREST RUN! ;-)
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2009 4:49 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3327 posts
Aug 28, 2009
8:33 AM
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Tony out of the those 2 birds that you moved around from team to team have you try flying them separate to see if one is following the other.
just a thought.----------
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3638 posts
Aug 28, 2009
8:51 AM
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Ralph, yes, I have flown them separately in different kits. They have had sufficient opportunity to get it in gear. The trial is over. Out of the 1/2 dozen of those late hatches, there is only 1 left that I am flying. He is a good roller and I'll fly him until I think he can be bumped for a better one.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3647 posts
Aug 30, 2009
6:22 AM
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Thom, I put a button on the menu list to the right called: Ruby Roller Blog. I hope it is both helpful to current fanciers working with my Ruby strain and serve to shed light on false rumors and lies being spread by jealous and unscrupulous individuals and websites. It is and always has been my objective to breed rollers that "...roll with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball".
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
2152 posts
Aug 30, 2009
7:28 AM
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Tony,
I think you were conducting an experiment rather then trying to keep a cull. Can I bring it back and whats it going to do?
Are the birds nestmates or from the same parents? Is it a congenital malady,curable or reparable thru medication or physical therapy?
Is it simply put a weak minded dumass, or a rebel without a clue? Those are the ones that usually end up in the bin.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ __
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3650 posts
Aug 30, 2009
7:48 AM
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Kenny, you are correct, it was an experiment. Because it was a group of late hatches that had the issues and not just a single bird, I am of the opinion that not getting young birds in the air as soon as possible in the first few months will probably forever alter their abilities to perform.
It also makes me think that persons buying my birds and then flying them when they have not been in the air for the first several months of life are going to have a a harder time of it.
I had one fellow who purchased a young bird from me ask me to hold it for him, I think I ended up holding it for about 2 months, by the time I shipped it, it was probably 5 months old! I told him, don't fly it, its too late to have it develop properly.
I don't think he liked hearing that. To me the bird was ruined as a flyer and all that it would be good for now was to breed from it and fly out the youngsters.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1393 posts
Aug 30, 2009
9:00 AM
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Tony, Thank you for the button. I would like to ask if it would be possible for you to include band numbers with the pictures of your breeders. It is nice to see what your stock looks like but it would be even better to see a number on a pedigree and then look at the parent bird. I understand not every bird that appears on your pedigrees would still be still available. Thank you for the consideration.
Thom
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Ragin Rollers
66 posts
Aug 30, 2009
5:02 PM
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Hey Tony I have alot of birds that have that same problem, in my loft or should i say kit pens these birds are hanging on the wire the perches are right up against the walls so i think that that maybe thats how my birds get this. Maybe yours have the same problem???????????????
Russ......
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3651 posts
Aug 30, 2009
7:50 PM
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Russ, I think you are talking about the pigeon that Hector is showing above with knarley feathers? Not my bird.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Jerry Allen
GOLD MEMBER
365 posts
Sep 01, 2009
1:31 PM
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At my loft over the years I have experienced bad results
from late hatches. The kits that are flown out through the
winter months have never made it to my A kit.
I’m not sure if it is from the mated pair becoming weak
from producing during the molt and not passing all of the
goods to the youngsters or the winter months having an effect
on development mentally & physically.
I had several birds from the same pair and can pick the winter hatch
from the spring hatch, on the perch and in the air.
While on the perch they appear to be missing something and
kind of give a blank look expression. When flown with other kits
they tend to under perform and stand out like a sore thumb.
I was too disappointed with the out come to ever try and breed from them. A late hatch held for breeding
only may have a better out come.
Now, I do all of the breeding and fostering in the spring time
as Mother Nature intended.
JMHO
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3344 posts
Sep 01, 2009
1:43 PM
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Follow Nature you can never fo wrong.
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1409 posts
Sep 03, 2009
9:40 AM
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Jerry, That makes sense. I started an experiment with one pair just to see the results. I only intend to raise six birds as late hatches, two are in the air now and two will be shortly, the other two right behind. I wanted to at the minimum get them settled and kitting before lock down. My intent is to bring them back out in the spring as soon as possible. Then compare their development with that of this years normal hatch. My biggest concern is in the moulting pattern. Will they moult normally or will they be forever locked into a different timing? I guess the only way to learn is asking questions even if only to ones self.
Thom
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