gentle johnnie
77 posts
Sep 01, 2009
6:09 PM
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My newest squeaker to kit box- Parents are Cliff Ball/Jay Yandle Cock Yellow Splash- Kenny Hartman Hen Andalusian- what is it?---------
Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2009 6:12 PM
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JEFF WILSON
20 posts
Sep 01, 2009
6:13 PM
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Johnnie looks like a brown check very pretty color lets hpoe he rolls good for ya.
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Ty Coleman
695 posts
Sep 01, 2009
6:47 PM
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brown check and I bet you it's a hen
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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JEFF WILSON
21 posts
Sep 01, 2009
7:16 PM
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Ty ill bet you are right it's a hen.
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Colors101
57 posts
Sep 01, 2009
8:01 PM
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Was the bird short-downed or long-downed, and can you post pictures of the parents?
Thanks,
Colors
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wannaroll
27 posts
Sep 01, 2009
8:11 PM
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That's a beauty for sure. I agree with the hen theory.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
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c robbo
495 posts
Sep 02, 2009
4:47 AM
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wot type ov bird is it is it a show bird....chinease owl by any chance.the wing type looks to short for a roller.just curious.. ps is it a red mosaique.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2026 posts
Sep 02, 2009
8:13 AM
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johnnie,
Almost looks like reduced or opal. It's hard to tell on these squeakers, sometimes, until they molt. What cock is he out of?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 8:16 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2027 posts
Sep 02, 2009
8:22 AM
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robbo
If I am not mistaken, that birds tail and wing tips "look shorter" because they are out of our line of sight below the wooden deck it is perched on. In the other pic, the whole wing not seen because of the way the pic is framed in the shot. If we saw a full view, the bird may very well, look more properly proportioned. Plus he's a squeaker.....
As far as a red mosaic, I think the markings/patterns are the same on both sides so I am not sure where you see anything to lead you to believe it is a mosaic.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 8:27 AM
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c robbo
496 posts
Sep 02, 2009
2:35 PM
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ballrollers
if that pigeon rolles il eat hay with a donkey.
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Colors101
62 posts
Sep 02, 2009
2:52 PM
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Actually guys, my first analysis was Dilute Indigo Opal-Check. That is perfectly perceivable with the information given in the post.
If you don't have anything to add to the poster's question, I would say you need not waste space.
Gentle Johnnie, if you do have pictures of the parents to this bird, those would be most helpful. Often times what we are told birds' colors are, end up being heresay, or something learned from a mentor. If you can provide some background examples, that would help me or anyone else, in determining what the bird's color is genetically.
Thanks!
Colors
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Ty Coleman
698 posts
Sep 02, 2009
3:25 PM
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The reason that I suspect brown is that I know the family of the cock and a little of the background of the yellow mottle line [ given it was from Jay or Cliffs main line ] and brown is in the blood line of the yellow mottle cock. I just raised a kaki out of my yellow mottle birds and went back to James with the question of were the brown came from. crobo the bird may very well be a stiff but the yellow mottle line birds are said by many to be the best spinning yellow birds in the country so I would not be so quick to graze with the donkey in the future.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
460 posts
Sep 02, 2009
4:50 PM
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Ty... Brown,I thank you mean Dun. That is a dun check mix wing.JDA
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gentle johnnie
79 posts
Sep 02, 2009
6:39 PM
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Ty & Cliff here are pic of parents & the squeaker
Cock Ball/Yandle - Yellow Mottle CCPRC 08 992- his parents are 03-108 Black W/F & his Grandmother 99-30 Yellow Self of Jay Yandle
Hen Kenny Hartman/ Turner BDL 07 177 Andalusian
Squeaker ASOL09 010 Hatched 7/28/2009
Hope these Pic help Thanks Cliff The Cock is 20ft Hen was on Bruce Howery World Cup Team and she really rolls @ Bruces- Bruce said he thinks Opal there is some yellow in wing color GOD BLESS!!!!
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 6:48 PM
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c robbo
497 posts
Sep 02, 2009
6:48 PM
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wot i think is the crossing the highflyer with the birmingham roller to get mad coulors...
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gentle johnnie
80 posts
Sep 02, 2009
6:52 PM
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c robbo I understand that you have a problem not sure what it is but you can keep it to yourself GOD BLESS
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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c robbo
498 posts
Sep 02, 2009
7:04 PM
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sorry if i upset you gentle johnnie..
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gentle johnnie
81 posts
Sep 02, 2009
7:09 PM
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Not upset just don't know why you have to bad mouth my squeaker i understand that you don't like color of the bird but i can assure you he OR she is all ROLLER not mix!!!!!
or what ever!!! GOD BLESS!!!!!
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 7:15 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2028 posts
Sep 03, 2009
6:40 AM
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robbo
The subject of this thread is one of color. Since it is a squeaker, the performance aspects will come later.
What you chose to eat is your business, as is, who you chose to dine with.
Thanks for your astute observations.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2030 posts
Sep 03, 2009
7:39 AM
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johnnie,
After looking a little closer at the photo and talking with another flyer, our best guess is that the Hartman bird looks to be reduced or opal and not andalusian. That would explain the reduced or opal characteristics in your squeaker.
Cliff
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Colors101
63 posts
Sep 03, 2009
8:30 AM
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I believe the mother is an Andalusion Opal. The young bird is showing a faint tail bar, but a tail bar nonetheless. So we have Dominant Opal that turns the tail bar white, Reduced that gets rid of the tail bar, and Indigo which gets rid of the tail bar as well.
My best guess would be Brown Indigo Opal-Check.
Thanks,
Colors
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2031 posts
Sep 03, 2009
8:33 AM
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Pretty good dectective work, there, Colors. Maybe johnnie can get us a photo shot of the tail spread.
Cliff
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
463 posts
Sep 03, 2009
8:47 AM
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colors.. Blue check,red check,blue bar can all show tail bar, so that proves nothing. Heck Even Scotts dark check on dark check can do that.JDA
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2033 posts
Sep 03, 2009
9:25 AM
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Scott
I think its a little early to be evaluating the bird's type, before it matures. I would need to see some better pics, too. I think a "wait and see attitude" will tell GJ all he needs to know about this bird, with regard to type and performance.
Cliff
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J_Star
2140 posts
Sep 03, 2009
9:57 AM
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Scott, What is it that you see in the type that is odd? I don't see an oddity in the type. If you can shed some light I would appreciate it. Thanks.
Jay
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Scott
2500 posts
Sep 03, 2009
10:33 AM
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Jay,it seems to follow the father side,the mother I like much better I might add.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 2:51 PM
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Scott
2501 posts
Sep 03, 2009
10:35 AM
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What is the problem JD ? there is more to be learned here.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 2:43 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
467 posts
Sep 03, 2009
10:49 AM
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Scot...Read the mans title to his post, you don,t like color so why are you trying to answer his question with some thing else other than what he is enquiring about.PS I have no problem, but you must.JDA
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2034 posts
Sep 03, 2009
11:27 AM
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You may well be right, Scott, but I don't think we can tell much about the type of the cock or the hen based on the photographs provided. You can understand if some are suspicious of your objectivity, right? LOL!
Cliff
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J_Star
2144 posts
Sep 03, 2009
11:45 AM
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I really like the way that youngster stand. I think he would have an awsom type. Also I think he is a cock bird not a hen as people suggested.
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2009 11:46 AM
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Colors101
64 posts
Sep 03, 2009
11:49 AM
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JDA, I mentioned nothing about Ash Red, Blue, or Brown. Those are colors. I referenced what the factors Indigo, Dominant Opal, and Reduced do to the tail bar no matter what color they are on. Supposedly simple genetics, although they can be a bit deceiving at times.
Thanks,
Colors
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gentle johnnie
83 posts
Sep 03, 2009
2:04 PM
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Thanks Cliff Ty Colors101 JDA and you too Scott I think I will leave it to Cliff- That is where I got most of my Rollers- I understand Scott that your a man of few colors in your loft that's the way you like it not so in Angles of the Sky Loft I like Performance first no matter what color they are- apples are apples Red or Green just an apple- It is still a Roller and it is mine!!!! Thanks Guys GOD BLESS!!!!----------
Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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Colors101
65 posts
Sep 03, 2009
2:30 PM
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JDA, I agree with your last statement. What did I miss? I don't remember Recessive Red being anything on the discussion of what this young bird is.
Now, if you're suggesting that my educated guess is wrong, based on the bird being Dun (or Silver-Check in the correct termonology) versus Brown, I would say that would be up to Gentle Johnnie answering my initial question. Was the bird long-downed or short-downed. Because you're right, Dun is NOT Brown. That's why I said the bird was Brown. I made my educated guess based off the picture of the bird, and he provided that from several angles. I never once saw a glimce of red or pink in the eyes...leading me to the conclusion of Brown...not Silver. Definitely not Dun as that is Spread Black Dilute.
I'm not trying to argue over this post, but I feel that I have a great amount of experience, study, and education in pigeon genetics and just want to be sure that I'm not missing or skipping over your point. Best to get all thoughts out on the table in one discussion.
Thanks,
Colors
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2009 2:40 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
469 posts
Sep 03, 2009
3:11 PM
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Colers.. ten/four, I remember you asking if downed was short or long,that does make a difference.JDA
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2009 9:17 PM
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gentle johnnie
85 posts
Sep 03, 2009
6:01 PM
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Colors what difference does short or long down make- remember this my first back after 28 years gone can you expound on that.----------
Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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Colors101
66 posts
Sep 03, 2009
6:23 PM
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Long-downed squabs are dominant. Meaning they are either Ash-Red, Blue, or Brown.
Short-downed squabs are the dilute of the dominant colors. Ash-Yellow, Silver, or Khaki.
Now, there are a multitude of factors that can and will come into play. In your case Dominant Opal is present. You have a Recessive Yellow Cock that can and will produce Recessive color hens. However, your Recessive Yellow Cock is masking another pattern, and most likely another color.
For example, I have a Recessive Red Cock that is carrying Dilute, maskes Check Pattern, and also carries Brown and Milky.
Once you understand basic inheritance and the way the order of dominance expresses itself, either in the nest or on the perch after a moult, you will begin to understand the genetics within your loft.
Thanks!
Colors
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Pumpkin Man
154 posts
Sep 03, 2009
6:32 PM
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From what I understand short down means the bird is dilute I think. It would let you know that a double factored grizzle that could appear to be self white at maturity was actually carrying dilute. I also notice some babies appear to have longer down. What's that longer down indicate? Bronze? etc.
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donb
53 posts
Sep 03, 2009
7:33 PM
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Gentle Johnnie-- lots of possibilities as u can see .If that yb was short downed I'd say it is a dun ck hen with indigo. With the cock being dilute all of his daughters wil be dilute He is probably blue ck or bar under the recessive yellow. However,the hen appears to be ck pattern under her modifiers and could have passed it on. I would like to mate her to a black cock with no modifiers and see if she produces classic Andalusians. If the yb was normal down then it is a cock bird and would not be dun ck. Colors, you said the cock is most likely masking another color--- it ain't " most likely" it is for sure-- he has to have one of the basic colors under the rec. yell. Robbo-- you need to sober up before u get on here with dumb-ass remarks. DB
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donb
54 posts
Sep 03, 2009
7:38 PM
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Pumkin Man, the long ( normal) down simply means it is not a dilute color-- wouldn't necessarily indicate bronze or anything else . DB
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Ty Coleman
699 posts
Sep 03, 2009
8:27 PM
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After seing that the hen is a opalusion I will recant my statement of the squek being a hen. Dominant Opal is not a factor that I am up to date with so I want speculate on the color. The only dominant opal bird that I have owned could not produce spin so I had no need to continue to breed off of him to learn about the modifier. I did find that it works alot like the dilute factor as far as a lightner of the color though in the few squeks that I raised.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3645 posts
Sep 03, 2009
8:33 PM
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Sigh
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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gentle johnnie
86 posts
Sep 04, 2009
2:18 PM
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More Pic of Tail and wings and a few more Squeakers in Kit Box
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 3:17 PM
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Scott
2506 posts
Sep 04, 2009
2:38 PM
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The difference is that I don't look at the color when looking at a bird, when he stretches out the wing as above all I see are the secondaries and how it relates to what bird must have,the father will have exactly the same if stretched out,what are your guys thoughts on the secondaries and how it relates to peformance ?
(Scot...Read the mans title to his post, you don,t like color so why are you trying to answer his question with some thing else other than what he is enquiring about.PS I have no problem, but you must.JDA )
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Scott Campbell
"It is aboutmoderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 2:50 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
475 posts
Sep 04, 2009
5:41 PM
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Scott....Bump
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Scott
2509 posts
Sep 04, 2009
7:50 PM
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Joe, what is your experiance with such broad wing type birds ?
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 8:14 PM
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XtraDeepRoller
25 posts
Sep 05, 2009
9:22 AM
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It looks like a Pink Lace Twinkie Twirler to me.
I once saw one in a dream.
Wait a minute,......no, that was a nightmare. I remember now because Scott was in it, he had a 2x4, and he was chasing Cliff, who was wearing his pink tu-tu. The Pink Lace Twinkie Twirler was on Cliff's head, holding on for dear life. Cliff was yelling something like; "but, it rolls 30 feet!"....and Scott was yelling back; "just let me take one clear swing at it, just one swing!"
X
LMAO
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2038 posts
Sep 08, 2009
8:26 AM
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Scott
Do you think that trying to make observations based on pictures, pictures that may not give the proper angle to discern if the wing feathers are proportional, is the way to go?
That angle seems to make the secondaries too broad to me, and too long. I would prefer to see the secondaries taper of into the body more with shorter, more narrow ones closer to the body. I think these fuller secondaries present in some rollers might make it difficult to generate top speed during the spin. then as soon as I say that, somebody shows me a blur roller with long full secondaries! LOL! The only thing absolute is that there are few absolutes in rollers.
For us to make an accurate call, we'd need to handle the bird or get a shot with the camera at 90/180 (depending on your perspective) degrees to the wing. If the camera is just held a little off, one way or the other, the proportions will not appear as they actually are.
Soctt, why don't you take a shot of one of your young birds...same age if you have it....and post it for comparison's sake.....
Colors are not your thing, I know, so I'm not sure why you were drawn to this post. The pictures shown are to show color/patterns. It's hard to tell much else from a photo....pretty bird though.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 8:29 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2039 posts
Sep 08, 2009
8:27 AM
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Xtra,
Try to control yourself! LOL! Geesh, you might be on the right tract in regards to the "LACE", but don't get all excited. I think there may be "reduced factor" thrown into this mix. Just a guess and time will tell.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 9:07 AM
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Scott
2537 posts
Sep 08, 2009
9:22 AM
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Cliff, I breed birds with broad wings just like that, it aint a good thing and probably one of the first things I look for when handling my own younsters.
What drew me to this tread ? it was to try and get some to think about what is important and to forget what isn't,I'm sure thankful that guys that taught me the finer details of the breed had a little depth to pass on other than nonsence.
The color has nothing to do with any thing on any of my questions here , why do you keep injecting such ???????
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 10:32 AM
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Colors101
67 posts
Sep 08, 2009
11:37 AM
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Hey Scott,
You know the answer to your question. Think about it. This goes back for at least 6 years here on this forum. That's why we see posts speaking the same words that Cliff or any other with birds of inferiority...as they've so been deemed by those that know the "finer details". One might argue that those that understand how to answer "Color Questions" know more "finer details" than others that post under such threads with no knowledge of the sorts.
Who does and does not need to reply to a question relating to color? I think perhaps if certain topics were entertained by those with strengths in that particular area, and those without a valid point to make would not, a lot of scrolling down could be eliminated. For example, I have no business commenting on a thread asking about feeding schedules - I feed my birds once a day. That doesn't benefit anyone but myself.
Hope this helps explain where I think Cliff is coming from. Perhaps others.
Thanks!
Colors
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