toronto15
276 posts
Sep 02, 2009
4:58 PM
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Does anyone feed certain birds or inividual birds different mixes or amounts,even though they belong to the same kit? I know this would be difficult and time consuming.Glen.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3354 posts
Sep 02, 2009
6:31 PM
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I always see if all the birds in the kit are eating the same amount but its never like that some eat the bigger grains first some eat the smaller grains first and some eat faster than others so what I do is hold the birds in my hands and see if its light or see if the crop is full like the other ones feel to see if their is meat on the keel bone if not he goes with me into my shed to get extra grub..or if one is working more I give him ten more extra peas from the mix is time consuming but I love what I do for them and for what they do for me its worth all the time..
With my birds I have what I call inspection time and evaluation time.. Inspection when they down on the ground or perch and evaluation time when they in the sky..always busy...
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 7:42 PM
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fhtfire
2064 posts
Sep 02, 2009
8:10 PM
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Good question...This is what I think about it....I used to hold cocks back etc..etc...pulled birds and fed them seperate....but then I thought to myself....
If I have to feed birds special...then sooner or later my special birds will be in the stock loft....and then I will produce more special needs birds....NO WAY....I build my teams based on the birds working as a team..that is kitting, breaking, rolling etc...but also...being able to feed the birds without special needs.
I made that decision back in 05 not to cater to birds....either they have it or they dont....they either eat what I give them and react to the other birds or they dont....To me it is a waste of time...and the good birds dont need special treatment.
I watch the birds...some eat more pellets...some eat more wheat etc...but that is what the individual bird needs to keep up with the team..each bird has its own metabolism...just like us.....so some dont need the high protein grains to keep up and some do....Some need less feed and some do not....
so...I dont feed birds seperate....if they cant hang and need special treatment....then they dont deserve to be in the team....
Now..if a bird is not feeling well....that is one thing...or going through the moult...or a bird bumped on accident....I give those birds a little slack......if the whole team is dialed in...I should be able to feed them a certain amount....and regardless of what bird eats what grains...that team should fire on all cyclinders.....
If you have enough room for all birds to eat if you use trays or a cookie sheet.....then all birds should get what they need...yes some eat slower...but that bird is eating slower because it is not as hungry....
I feel if you have the feed amount dialed in...then the birds will not PICK AND CHOOSE seeds as much..they will eat everything in front of them as quick as possible...
SO to make a short story long....I dont cater to birds i the team....by feeding them individually....uless it is sick or injured.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2065 posts
Sep 02, 2009
8:16 PM
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One more thing....
I also tried feeding grains seperate instead of together...like if I feed my mix...I will feed pellets first...then wheat...then milo...then sauflower...thinking in mind that each bird is getting the same amount of grub across the board....all that did was jack my birds up....why....once you think about it is easy to figure out....
Like I said before...each bird eats the grains that make it go...or eats enough to make it go...so for example...if I feed my mix...you may have a hen that is ripping...eat mostly pellets.....and then a cock that is ripping will eat mostly wheat...but there bodies have adapted to what they NEED to get the job done....so....If I feed all Pellets first...the cock that is ripping will be forced to eat more pellets then it usually does and that will have an affect on performance...then that hen will maybe eat more wheat then usual...because of being forced to eat certain grains....now if you feed the mix...MOST of the time teh birds crave certain seeds because there body is telling them that is what they need..there instict is tellin them that they need this or that grain....so again..they have a balance that each bird needs and it will vary from bird to bird...so I dont make it hard....on me or the birds...I feed what I feed and they either make the team or they dont....feeding seeds seperate and by themselves when you dont usually do that..will jack up a team...
remember..each bird has its own motor...each motor needs different fuel based on each birds needs..so some birds run off diesel...some of unleaded...some off super unleaded...some off battery and some are a ford escape hybrid...so each bird may look like a bird but they each have a different motor with different needs...
We all know what happens if you put diesel in a gas motor....it dont work to good....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2009 8:17 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3642 posts
Sep 02, 2009
9:03 PM
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Paul makes some very good points especially avoiding special needs birds. You will be opening yourself up for other problems as you grow in size and scope.
A good friend of mine told me I have to make up my mind to either compete or raise pets. If the choice is to compete you cannot afford to be raising special needs birds. You just don't have the time and still coach a productive kit.
The same attitudes have to stretch over to health care. You have to spend your money and time on preventive care on all your birds. You don't have time to dote over individual sick birds.
Either raise pets or compete. If it is raising pets you opt for then you will have time to dote over special needs birds individually.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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fhtfire
2066 posts
Sep 02, 2009
9:05 PM
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Go nick!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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toughrollers
244 posts
Sep 03, 2009
1:50 AM
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great info paul!
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fhtfire
2068 posts
Sep 04, 2009
7:55 AM
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Thanks Ralph!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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steve49
221 posts
Sep 04, 2009
12:21 PM
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i just read an interview with Rick Mee, and he feeds grains separately, first one type, then another, and so on until he's given them all they'll eat. of course, i'm sure he's measured the amounts of each, otherwise they'll eat their fill of the first offered grain. now, i agree in part with Paul, regarding special needs birds. however, i'm not totally sold on the birds ability to eat what they need in the correct quantity. i think the birds will eat what they LIKE first, then on to the next choice after the first is gone. a survey or test needs to be done to prove the birds actually know what they need and in what quanities. just my thoughts, would love to hear more ideas on this very subject. i'm preparing a kit for competition, and i've added red wheat and white mile. right now i've mixed equal parts with their previous mix, so they're still getting what they were accustomed to, but in smaller amounts, since the addition of the wheat and milo is taking displacing 2/3 of their previous mix.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2069 posts
Sep 04, 2009
5:56 PM
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Steve,
Let me add to my last post.....what Rick does is fine if that is what he does all the time...My point that I did not state clearly is most make the mistake of feeding mix or what have you..and build a team...and is happy with the team...then they start feeding single grains...now the team that you built was put together feeding a standard mix....and they made the team...being on the mix...meaning they made the team...eating whatever seeds they wanted....then you go in and start feeding one grain at a time.....then the birds that made it to the team....based on there own selection of grains...so bird X picks out more peas.....Bird Y eats more milo....Bird eats more wheat......so each bird made the team eating grains that they picked out....then you switch it up and feed individual grains....and then you are forcing X bird to eat more wheat then usual....Y bird gets more pellets..etc.....now the birds are getting more of certain types of seeds....now you have changed the birds feed that got them to the team in the first place.
As far as picking the seeds they need..that is a fact...birds dont "like"...they run off instinct and the needs.....look at wild birds..at certain times of the year they will prefer different seeds...due to weather conditions....diet changes based on need not like.......of course if you only put one type of feed in the loft..they will eat it..kit birds are very hungry..because we keep them hungry....so they eat EVERYTHING...think of our breeders...during the summer....they WILL NOT EAT popcorn unless that is all that is left..why..they dont need it...now during the winter...they eat the popcorn first..based on instinct and need....we think the birds love sauflower it tastes like candy...but that is not it....the birds know it is fatty and OILY....they eat if first because it is not a seed in abundance and they know they need to get what they can when they can...based on need..they need the oils for the feathers....now there are not alot of seeds in the mix because it is expensive and will make your birds FAT...and the seed companies know that we want lean pigeons with just enough to keep them oily....and keep the price down...now if you fed Sauflower to your birds every day for a week...and then through the mix in...they would go for the other grains food.....same goes with grit...you put the oyster shells in and they pig out..but when you keep oyster shells in the loft all the time..no big deal...they dont "need" it.
We often get mixed up as humans and think that dogs have feelings....a birds like certain grains...but animals survive on instinct....and what is needed to servive....
I have watched my birds and I have watched a couple birds just to kind of see what they like...and to be honest.....the birds that I watched...preferred different seeds based on time of year....and where they are as far as fly shape.....right now...the kit birds go after the pellets and sauflower first....because they need it for the moult....7 months ago....the kit birds would hit the wheat and milo and on some days the sauflower was the last to go.....
Steve..you said it in one word..."accustomed"....stick with what they are accustomed too.....My point was that you dont want to do a huge drastic change like the two mentioned above.....if they are not accustomed to it.
I remember when I had my goats and I put out a salt block...and those goats went crazy for it...I said to the vet that was there....oh man they LIKE that salt block...the vet said...they need that salt block...goat dont like..they need.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 6:11 PM
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steve49
228 posts
Sep 05, 2009
11:20 AM
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Paul, thanx for the excellent response, and also bringing up a very needed diaglogue on this subject. i watch both my kits eat up close, and some birds seem to go after certain grains first, while others go for the little rape or rice. since my normal mix contains rape, rice, and safflower, they're 'accustomed' to it, so maybe the 'need' for it isn't as strong as that bird who hasn't seen those seeds offered before. like your goats, or the oyster shell. this now makes me wonder if i should, as per the breeders suggestion, put my competition kit on only red wheat/white milo leading up to their competition?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2070 posts
Sep 05, 2009
6:29 PM
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Steve,
My kit birds get mix all the time when they are young until they come into the roll....then when they are in the roll..they get more rest and mix only after fly day and the wheat and milo on the two rest days.....if they feel light or during the moult..they get mix on one rest day and wheat milo on the last rest day before they fly...this is for just every day maintenance flying....
Now preparing for a comp is a different story....I start about 10-14 days out and start flying every day and then I put them on straight wheat...the amount is based on FLY TIME only....I want them to be in the air no more then 45 minutes during training....if they go over I deduct a couple table spoons....if they come in before 30 minutes....I add a couple spoon fools...if they start feeling to light in the hand and looking run down..I will throw the mix to them for one day and rest them ONLY one day.....then three days before the comp on there last fly day...they get all the mix they can eat...then wheat and milo....1.75 cups of wheat milo and then on the last rest day...1 cup of wheat milo ...(20 birds)...basically....a full meal for the kit is 2 cups for 20 birds....10 spoons per 1/2 cup...or 2tbls per bird....I only use the tablespoons if I have less then 20 for example 18 birds would be a full ration...1.75 cups....plus 6 additional tbls that woudl be 18 for 18...anyway....its not brain surgery...but to prepare for comp....I would take the advice of the breeder and put them on wheat..but pay close attention to how they feel in the hand and how they look on the perch....
if your birds get stiffer and stiffer during the training you are in the right direction..of my birds are flying stiff the day I lock them down for rest...I know they will be on for the comp..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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steve49
229 posts
Sep 06, 2009
12:25 PM
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Paul, so, if my young birds are in the middle or latter part of their moult, should i even be changing or adding new feed to their current food? my fall fly comp is sept 19, so i really only have 2 weeks. i've already added 1/3 wheat, 1/3 white milo to their reg mix. should i not bother to lessen the mix, and increase the wheat/milo since they're still in moult? i've been flying them thru the moult the same as before. if any bird doesn't fly out of the box on its own, i won't chase it, just in case its hurting or feeling the effects of the moult. and also, Paul, you mention you're feeding about 2 tblspns per bird, is this correct?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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toronto15
278 posts
Sep 06, 2009
3:21 PM
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Thanks very much for the answers,especially Paul. Your post 2065 makes so much sense,but I,m still not sure if each bird would know what to eat and if it should be me knowing each birds needs to perform perfectly within it,s kit. I have no problem eliminating individuals that are not up to par,but just wonder if birds are eliminated because I, the manager, have not done all I can to make them excel.I think it,s going to be a long time before I see the kit I want.Thanks again. Glen.
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fhtfire
2072 posts
Sep 06, 2009
11:38 PM
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Steve,
I fly my birds through the moult too....I fly in the first week of October and most of my birds will be on the tail end of the moult...regardless...I put them on straight wheat....and fly every day before the comp and lock down 3 days before....and then give them mix the last day that I fly...I DO NOT put them on milo at all..until the two rest days before the comp..then it is 50/50 milo....and wheat.....But I also really feed my birds a rich mix for a couple weeks too....prior to starting the comp...now if your birds are in good shape already...I would start 10 days out with the every day flying...
If you already have a game plan..stick to it..if you are flying blind..try it and see what happens...but keep an eye on the birds...feel them..if they start getting light on you..throw the mix to them.....for a day during training....and the amount of feed is based on fly time only.
As far as 2tbls...that is pretty much what I call a full ration...20 birds get 2 cups or 40tbls.....I never use tables spoons in my measuring except for twice a year and that is during comp prep....plus or minus a tbls....to lower or raise fly time...
The birds get more then two tbls in the winter....that is mainly summer.....I am not stingy with the mix....
ANyway....the way I do it is just one way of MANY ways...just try different ways and see what works with your birds...make fake comp days and prep your brids...then feed them up for a couple weeks and then do it again...trying different things..just dont look TOO DEEP INTO IT>..its not brain surgery....
Anyway...again....Maint..flying...Fly REst REst Fly....Mix W/M W/M....or Mix Mix W/M (if light)...Full ration on Mix day....reduce each day after....
Comp 10-14 days out...Fly Straight wheat....Mix if needed (only if needed).....3 days before comp...Rest.....Mix after last fly....All they can eat....Rest ....wheat milo....rest...wheat milo....
Thats about all I have to say about that...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2073 posts
Sep 06, 2009
11:39 PM
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As far as young birds..they get mix the whole time until they come into the roll...then its fly every other day and wheat milo on rest day....when they really start rolling and are comp quality....then its more rest....and more wheat milo..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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steve49
232 posts
Sep 07, 2009
10:25 AM
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Paul, when you say, 'they've come into the roll', are you meaning that most of the kit are rolling or just single or double flips? i'm asking because most of each kit are doing some state of rolling, and i'm not sure if i should begin flying every other day as you say you do with your birds. i need to determine for sure when to actually start flying every other day. plus, as per your suggestion, 10 days before comp, straight wheat (no milo, unless needed), then 3 days prior to comp, rest(feed mix, all they want), fly,rest (feed wheat/milo), fly, rest(wheat/milo). should they be getting full ration during the last 10-14 days prior to comp?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2074 posts
Sep 07, 2009
11:11 AM
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Steve,
Coming into the roll is actual rolling..not flipping..that is still youngbird stage....not deep but rolling maybe only 5-10'....and I keep birds together based on performance...not age....for example..my 4 kits....one is the A-team and they are well the A-team.....they work..cream of the crop..then the B-team...all 09 birds....working as a team...but not like the A-team...next is the "teenager" team..they are doing the short rolls....not quite ready to be promoted....then the last is the youngest birds..they are doing flips and tail rides etc....
As far as the wheat you feed based on fly time...I start out with 1 cup of wheat for 20 birds or a half ration....and then adjust up or down from there...I usually adjust up or down by two tbls each time....if they fly way to long or way to short..I may do it 4 at a time...fly time ..I like is usually....30-45 minutes and they are back in and trapped...
rock and ROLL
Pau
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