Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1434 posts
Sep 09, 2009
10:28 AM
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Cliff, I have learned over time that all things are subject to change. I have nothing against competition and could someday wish to take part. I won't disrespect the bird or the competition with anything less then my best. I am not there yet and my never be. To take part I would have to sacrifice birds on a huge scale to the B.O.P.. I don't think I have that in me. I know everyone faces loss but mine are terrible. Not an excuse, just an explanation. I still feel that so called backyarders are as valuable as anyone who flies in competition. To discount their contribution offhandedly is just wrong.
I have found your willingness to share your knowledge openly and without rancor refreshing. Even your rookie corrections leave our (my) dignity intact. Were others simular the hobby would be better and larger.
Thom
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Scott
2546 posts
Sep 09, 2009
11:16 AM
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Tracey, not sure who you are refering to but I consider "any" flyer that puts them up and participates in-valuable to the sport regardless of where they are on the score sheets, these are the guys that are the real back bone.
Those that don't participate do so by choice, nothing wrong with that and I did the same for a long time, it is a choice, but they also don't contribute (nor did I) in any way shape or form, sorry for calling it like it is, but calling it any other way is untruthful.
(How about a blow hard comp flier with a comic strip fly record?)
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3669 posts
Sep 09, 2009
11:23 AM
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Hey Ron, Invite the none competitor to come and watch a fly so he can see that it is a relaxed atmoshere (the flier is probably strung tight, but the rest of them are relaxed-LOL) and a fun atmoshere.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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bman
719 posts
Sep 09, 2009
11:37 AM
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Nick, "strung tight" I need a bottle of pepto every time i put them up. Oh well we will see this saturday if the COMP GREMLINS bite me ih the arse again.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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katyroller
552 posts
Sep 09, 2009
12:03 PM
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Scott,
The comp flier who puts up his birds for every fly and always finishes at the bottom of the score sheet, besides financially, what contribution is he really making? What about the backyarder that belongs to a club and buys his club bands every year and or belongs to the NBRC and pays his annual dues? Isn't he contributing to the hobby? How about the backyarder that belongs to a club and attends the flys to provide moral support to the other members and maybe spends his gas money to provide a carpool for other members who can't afford the gas? The answer to the above questions is, we all contribute to the hobby in one way or another. To say that someone who doesn't compete isn't pulling his share of the load is BS and just wrong.
Tracey
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2051 posts
Sep 09, 2009
1:03 PM
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Thom,
I can't fault you for that philosophy, and you are not the only one that is making that choice. And I will not be surprised to see more make it if our BOP problem continues to worsen.
bman
We encourage their participation by respecting their interest and their contribution to the hobby....and by ENCOURAGING them to get out and meet other roller guys and see their birds in the air. Are we all cut out to be professional boxers, football players, golfers? Nope. But still legions of enthusiasts play those games and indulge in those sports. WHY? Because they WANT TO. They have a desire to engage in that activity. It comes from within. Maybe some "moderated " fortitude plays into the desire? I don't know.
All we can do is offer the opportunity to participate and encourage them to support their region. They will receive that little pin to show they stepped forward, they may be fortunate enough to earn some master flyer points and they will meet some new friends that also fly rollers.
WE have to encourage flyers and show them how much fun it is, the rest is up to them. Either they want to compete or they do not, either way they are NBRC members and that should be a good start.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 1:06 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3670 posts
Sep 09, 2009
2:18 PM
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Ron, A funny thing about me is that when driving the judge around I am very vocal and jovial until I head towards my home. I get much quieter and intense; can't help it. It is like game day in football in my younger days(LOL). The adrenelin is pumping(LOL).
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 2:19 PM
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wishiwon2
207 posts
Sep 09, 2009
2:37 PM
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Getting back to Nick's original postulation;
Pumkin Man said,
" If Jerry Higgins, Rick Mee, Don Oulette, Norm Reed, Jay Starley, Scott Campbell, etc, etc, all get on here and say yes indeed eye sign matters. I will start looking at it. Or tail flex indicates...So far the Pros have been quiet which tells me they probably look at performance first and everything else will fall in line."
I dont know many of these guys, but I know Jay and have questioned him often about why he uses a particular bird in stock over another. (There are several world class spinners in his kits that rarely/never get stocked). Jay cant/doesnt articulate why he chooses a certain bird, except if asked "why not?", he says it doesnt have the right look.
I think what Nick is suggesting, and I believe it too, is there are traits besides being top quality spinner that makes birds valuable. I havent yet learned to predictably utilize these other traits to my advantage, to maintain/improve my loft of rollers, but, I believe they exist. I know a few guys who can go through a loft or a kitbox and consistently pick out top performing birds, I've seen them do it. Not that they are 100% correct all the time, but better than 50/50. I want to learn those skills as well.
Nothing will ever take the place of selecting top birds from the air, but as said before, if thats all there is to it, we would each have lofts full of great spinners. There are other things to consider. We ought to learn these as well as picking them from the air.
A "Fullerton metaphor" if you will; I learned this while wrestling in college. The difference between a non-wrestler and an amatuer is overcome easily in a short amount of time. The difference between an all-american and a NCAA champion is very minor and takes years to develope. These differences are very real and somewhat predictable. In general the higher the level of wrestling, each gain of improvement comes in increasingly smaller steps and takes increasingly longer to accomplish.
It is the same I believe, with most any endeavor. To breed rollers that roll decent or above average is something that comes relatively rapidly for a beginning fancier. But, to breed and fly a team, that shows ultimate top level performance regularly, bred from a loft of chosen stock birds, is rare indeed and requires increasingly finer adjustments to achieve.
Nick is suggesting we would all benefit from paying closer attention to these finer adjustments. He isnt telling us eye sign theory is what makes great roller fiers, but to not dismiss those types of theories because we dont understand them fully or we cant put them to work for us.
Good point Nick! I get your point and I agree.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 2:45 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1435 posts
Sep 09, 2009
4:00 PM
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Nick, I had not forgotten your 3668 post but instead have spent time reflecting on what I wanted to respond. My birds are worth only the enjoyment I receive and if they can help a friend, more. I invite you or anyone to stand under my kit and tell me what you think. I'm not satisfied and feel I still have a long way to go. My point, more then accolades, dreams and plans are what make our hobby worth while. If competitions were outlawed, if there were severe penalties for keeping rollers, people would risk their freedom and possibly their lives to hide a few birds for their children. They simply are just more.
I also feel nothing but respect for your honesty and obvious caring. I don't expect we will always agree on everything but I do expect it will be from your heart and worth thinking about.
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 4:26 PM
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Canspinners
309 posts
Sep 09, 2009
5:23 PM
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How about changing the rules , being confident enough to know that how you finish in a competiton does not make you who you are.
How about team work I often think world flys should be conducted as club flys.....have one nutral location with the lofts .... each member contributes a sqeak .. The club enters the world fly based on the kits that are comprised of all the club members birds so you compete by regional teams as opposed to individually.
It all depends on our motives do we work as a team or do we compete as individuals?
To me team work will eliminate many of the pitfalls of the hobby today
and would enable us to share our birds with each other to maintain and improve the breed
Just a thought to consider
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Pumpkin Man
164 posts
Sep 10, 2009
6:38 AM
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Maybe the best question to ask is - Have you substantially increased the perrcentage of quality spinners you produce if so what have you done differently to achieve it? I think that's kind of what it all boils down to anyway. We all produce some good and some junk. If top comp guys are producing let's say 20% comp quality birds (not really sure what the number is because if most told the truth they probably wouldn't sell the amount of birds they do) then let's just come to terms that we're going to have to produce 200 birds or more to have a competitive kit. If that's what we need to do then we should focus on health, loft management, facilites and production. Especially starting out. I really don't know what a realistic percentage of top shelf spinners people are getting are but if the gene combos are so random that 20% is the rule not the exception then my goal will be to produce as many birds as possible and cull down. I would rather produce 75% spinners than 20% but I'm willing to be honest with myself and if 20% is what I get so be it. I'm just being honest here because I used to produce 40-60 birds a year and never had a holdover kit once I culled had BOP attacks etc. I wasted a lot of time. I wish someone had told me straight up you need to produce a 100 birds to get a decent kit. Which is what I'm finding out and it may be more like 2 years in a row of producing 100 to have a serious shot at winning something. Let me back up to also say I got my initial stock from a master flyer so I don't think I started with trash that i'm trying to make into something. My two-year plan is to produce 100 birds this year and hold over 48 and do the same thing next year. If I produce 200 to make an excellent kit of 24 I think I will be competitive in 2011. Step 1 almost complete. Now some will say dang that's a lot of birds to get one solid comp kit but I think that's what it will realistically take. If after 200 birds I still don't have a competitive kit I will change families. Everybody should have their own plan. This is mine.
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J_Star
2157 posts
Sep 10, 2009
7:04 AM
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But I thought I told the forum that when I posted the "Quality Thru Quantity" discussion with Scott and others while back. When I started attending the conventions and visit people backyard, I found out the people say one thing and do other thing in their backyard. For people starting in this hobby, this is the way to go to be able to field a good team to enjoy.
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 8:00 AM
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katyroller
554 posts
Sep 10, 2009
7:37 AM
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I think alot of folks are taking the approach of mass producing then culling down. Alot of folks are saying they need to do this to deal with the BOP issue. You have some folks claiming they breed out of 32 pairs each season and maintain 6 or 7 kitboxes only to end the year with 1 or 2 kitboxes of young. I'm always amazed how folks are able to put together 32 top shelf pairs of birds. They must be producing higher percentages of top shelf birds or spending fortunes on someone elses stock birds. If they are buying someone elses stock are they flying them out and picking out of the air? Are they fully flying out their own youngster? You can take these figures and take them a step or two further and formulate some more pretty interesting questions.
Tracey
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katyroller
555 posts
Sep 10, 2009
7:44 AM
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J Star,
Quantity over quality? Blasphemy! LOL That would go against what everyone is preaching! The idea that some would say one thing then do another, well... that's just dishonest, right? LOL
Tracey
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J_Star
2158 posts
Sep 10, 2009
8:00 AM
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No you misunderstoud. It is quallity thru quantity. You breed more to get the 80/20 rule.
Jay
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Scott
2550 posts
Sep 10, 2009
8:25 AM
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How is that Jay ?
( When I started attending the conventions and visit people backyard, I found out the people say one thing and do other thing in their backyard. )
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Scott
2551 posts
Sep 10, 2009
8:27 AM
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This makes no sence to me what so-ever
(No you misunderstoud. It is quallity thru quantity. You breed more to get the 80/20 rule.)
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Pumpkin Man
165 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:37 AM
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Scott,
From what I can tell you are one of the more seasoned flyers that post on here and pretty much call it like you see it. How many birds do you think the average fancier with average birds would need to produce and select from when they want to move from backyarding to competing. If this is an unfair question, what do you think we should be reasonably expecting to produce percentage wise of quality spinners?
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2054 posts
Sep 10, 2009
10:01 AM
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I think what Jay is talking about is BEFORE one is able to boil down and condense all the breeders he has, somewhere along the line he must test-mate all breeders and usually doing this requires breeding lots of birds and many culls. Once the best breeders are identified, then one can build around these better birds. Each year, the gene pool becomes a little more condensed and the percentages of good birds, goes up and fewer birds need to be bred........or at least that is the hope. Lose a kit to an overfly, lose the best YB's to a few BOP's and we are back at square one.
I have heard many veteran breeders say, "nationally you should expect to get one good spinner for every 10 birds raised." Even with a set of proven breeders it usually takes a few years to field a good competition team. Add to all that the fact that most competition flyers want to have an "A" and "B" team, and you see that breeding and flying several kits may be necessary depending on how good your breeders are and how many birds you loose.
Every situation is different and each flyer must set his own projections for how many kits he can raise and fly.
Cliff
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J_Star
2159 posts
Sep 10, 2009
10:20 AM
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Scott, we've discussed this in legth in earlier thread. No reason to rehash the same thing again. For starters they need to do that then they can nerrow their selection to few breeders.
If you expect every fancier to have a golden pair or a producer cock or hen, then think again. Those are gold nuggets and not easily found. However, it easier to move earth with a dozer than a shovel to find those gold nugets. don't you think!
I wasn't talking about your backyard. I've been in so many in NC, Texas and Cal.
This year before W/C I lost my kit (early developer) on the first day I let them out because I moved to another house and I thought the birds were homed to the new one. If I didn't breed 80 birds lasy year, I wouldn't been able to particpate in the Fall fly this year and I would have plenty of excuses. What gives!
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 10:29 AM
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J_Star
2160 posts
Sep 10, 2009
10:39 AM
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Cliff, a cull can be defined in many ways. A cull is a bird you destroy and discard. But when you destroy to consume is no longer defined as a cull. I culled to consume birds not just because they are rolldown, rather, because they fall in the average category which I have plenty of. I look for better than what I have to replace some of what I have and have extras when needed. Everybody have their own strategy and goals. It doesn't matter how you got there. What matters in this stupid hobby of ours is you are already there. And I will be there shortly, the way I know best.
If the majority of your A team is not good enough to become breeders, then where do you get breeders from? The thin air!!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 11:54 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2056 posts
Sep 10, 2009
12:01 PM
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Jay,
I'm not there yet. When I go to Jay's or Clay's or Joe Bob's to fly their birds, they are producing much higher numbers of quality spinning young birds from fewer breeders than I. But I get closer each year. That's the main objective.
Cliff
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Pumpkin Man
167 posts
Sep 10, 2009
6:23 PM
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Good posts Jay and Cliff. This is what I was hoping someone would say. It illustrates the point to new guys that you have to be committed and have some patience to reach your goal. Most of us start by buying some young birds and making breeders out of those unflown birds. Gurus will say that's stupid they could be junk. But I'm not gonna spend 500 bucks or more and take a chance losing that kit of birds only to have to spend another $500. Breed all you can find the best out of them and then discard the originals that didn't produce. We are all at different stages in this thing. I'm not as close to my goal as Cliff is but that's okay, he's been serious about longer than i have. He'll meet his goal and I'll meet mine eventually. But it will be because of discipline. Some of these comp guys have been doing this since they were kids...for the rest of us it's just gonna take a while so don't be discouraged new folks.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3676 posts
Sep 10, 2009
6:38 PM
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To get 20 high value spinners it takes about 100 birds - Aubrey Thibodeaux.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3677 posts
Sep 10, 2009
6:44 PM
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I have 80 kit birds and it took me 4 years and 400 birds to get there. It takes a lot of birds to find the quality you what. It takes quanity to get quality. If you just breed for 40 birds you will get about 8 good birds; not enough for a full kit - Aubrey Thibodeax
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 11, 2009 8:22 PM
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katyroller
564 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:22 PM
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J Star,
I actually agree with what you say and came to this conclusion myself. I kept hearing that you should prove everything in the air before you breed from it and when I started doing the math, the numbers weren't adding up. Even click pairs can throw some duds, so it only makes sense to breed as many as you can to increase the percentage of good performers. Once you have breeders that give you good performers you can then begin picking your breeders out of the air and replacing the original breeders if necessary.
Tracey
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2059 posts
Sep 11, 2009
7:41 PM
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Punkin' man,
You got it right....discipline and committment...and the right individual pigeons to start with. Those are all key elements to success. You've got the right attitude. You're gona do fine.
Cliff
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