MANN
52 posts
Sep 24, 2009
8:59 PM
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Has any body cross rubys and steve's faimly of birds if so can u let me know the results and how long have you been working with them.
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gator45juice
52 posts
Sep 25, 2009
1:32 AM
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what on earth would you do that for???
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fhtfire
2110 posts
Sep 25, 2009
7:53 AM
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Only one way to find out...and that is to go ahead and pull the trigger and try. Just do a couple trial pairs like I did when I crossed them with the Morts.....if the trial pairs pan out then you will be happy...if they dont....then you still have your base that you didnt cross that will keep you going.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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PAUL R.
98 posts
Sep 25, 2009
8:24 AM
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Have you seen any of Steve Smiths birds fly? Did you see the birds you have fly? If you did, Did you see something his birds were lacking? Theres got to be a reason as to why you would think by crossing that you would improve the family. Steves birds can put up some big points. As for the Ruby birds, I havent heard much. Or even winning a major competition. Again I havent heard of any. And im sure if there is one or two or more, someone will correct me on this. Things to consider.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3711 posts
Sep 25, 2009
8:51 AM
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Paul, more for you and anyone else to consider:
all depends on how many people actually fly them in comp...2 or 3 that I know of???
If 100% of all competitors flew RR, then they would win 100% of time. Out of 200 to 300 kits flying Fall Fly or World Cup, how many fly RR? I am guessing about 3 to 5 maybe even as many as 10?? Pretty steep odds especially when you consider luck goes a long way to producing a winner.
Also, how many flyers have bred them for multiple years to build a collection of the best of the best over a 3 to 5 year period that it takes many flyers to produce a good kit?
That is the real question: how many of those who fly competition with RR have produced kits over several years and only used the best of the best to come up with a good kit and then compete with them? Few I would wager.
I acquired my birds from Sal Estrada and he won ALLOT in his local club (LPRC) back in the 1990's when I got my birds from him. He also won the Southern California region World Cup Prelims when Southern California was only ONE region, not the elevendy billion it has today.
I have not been into competition as a rule as my enjoyment and efforts are to breed for the aerial standard described by Pensom in his book, not to an indefinable convoluted set of rules that change from club to club or judge to judge.
I'll stay with the breed standard because that is less subjective and a more accurate description of what it is I breed for. I win in my backyard every time I see a RR roll to the aerial standard. Don't need a judge to tell me what I saw.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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PAUL R.
99 posts
Sep 25, 2009
9:30 AM
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Tony, thanks for the information and as to how you stand on competition. You breed for your own enjoyment, and thats a choice you've made for yourself and the kind of birds you breed. Unlike you, I breed for competition as well as Steve Smith.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3712 posts
Sep 25, 2009
9:37 AM
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Paul, I can dig that, to quote a popular tv psychologist, how's that competition thing been working for you?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Electric-man
2454 posts
Sep 25, 2009
9:51 AM
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Maybe he just has an oddd # of breeders from the two families and just wants to try his luck.
Paul R., why do you have to take a stab at Tony just to make your point? Seems kind of disrespectful to the site host! JMO
Not cool my friend!
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Val
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gotspin7
2549 posts
Sep 25, 2009
9:53 AM
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Mann, if that Steve Smith bird does not work out for you, I would love to take it from your hands...lol...
How does one breed for competition?
I fly in competitions, but breed for it? I also breed for the standard and I also fly competition. I enjoy all of it the good bad and the UGLY, there is no reason for me not to help support my hobby that I love so much and if I win, I will take that too..lol
Remember KISS method. Peace!
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Sal Ortiz
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3713 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:04 AM
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Paul, did you read this part of my post:
"...all depends on how many people actually fly them in comp...2 or 3 that I know of???
If 100% of all competitors flew RR, then they would win 100% of time. Out of 200 to 300 kits flying Fall Fly or World Cup, how many fly RR? I am guessing about 3 to 5 maybe even as many as 10?? Pretty steep odds especially when you consider luck goes a long way to producing a winner.
Also, how many flyers have bred them for multiple years to build a collection of the best of the best over a 3 to 5 year period that it takes many flyers to produce a good kit?
That is the real question: how many of those who fly competition with RR have produced kits over several years and only used the best of the best to come up with a good kit and then compete with them? Few I would wager..."
Why does it seem you ignored addressing this quote in your response? I think because it rips your little pejorative comment to shreds and makes it sound foolish? JMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
569 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:05 AM
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MANN,
I see no reason not to try the cross, GO FOR IT. As stated earlier keep good records and fly the offspring hard. If they don't work you still got the pure blood to fall back on. The BR wouldn't be what it is today if everyone was just satisfied with good enough.
Tracey
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George R.
82 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:11 AM
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I also breed for the Pensoms Standard but I do enter in every comp fly that I can.
And the Birds seem to do just fine....
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George Ruiz
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3714 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:46 AM
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George, here is what I said:
"...I have not been into competition as a rule as my enjoyment and efforts are to breed for the aerial standard described by Pensom in his book, not to an indefinable convoluted set of rules that change from club to club or judge to judge..."
I believe my logic for my position is sound.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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PAUL R.
100 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:52 AM
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Tony, I didnt miss your qoute. People breed for different things. some for show, some for backyard enjoyment, some for competition, some like you and some in the mix of things. Why are you so butt hurt over how you breed? It is what is. Im not taken a stab at you. Tony breeds for him as described and thats his way of enjoying the breed. How is it going for me? I continue breed For a better comp bird.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3715 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:01 AM
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Let me construct it for you why I am "butt hurt" to use your words:
"...Steves birds can put up some big points. As for the Ruby birds, I havent heard much. Or even winning a major competition. Again I havent heard of any..."
"...Unlike you, I breed for competition as well as Steve Smith..."
You were making a comment on the ability of the RR in competition, were you not? Do not the lack of numbers of flyers flying comp with them have any significance as to the tempo of your comments? I guess not as they did not play in to your comment in which you had an opportunity to acknowledge them but chose not to.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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bman
722 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:40 AM
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Paul,what's your definition of a "major competition" ?
Just curious.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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PAUL R.
101 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:41 AM
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Tony, I'll let you have the last word on this. You've ruffled your own feathers. You dont fly for comp. Thats the bottom line. Its your choice. So go ahead and blast on Tony. I didnt know until today that the ruby birds arent breed for comp but ARE BREED for the facts that you mentioned earlier. And again thats okay, its how you get your enjoyment. Thats what counts. I breed dif and thats how I get my enjoyment. I know Steve birds are breed for comp.
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pisto
162 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:47 AM
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i remember asking tony the same question. what i got in return was that ruby rollers are pure bred. i don't own any but i wish i did have a few because of all the feedback i read on this roller forum.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3716 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:51 AM
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Typical, I show the error or bring to light fallacious thinking and I am the one with the problem.
I have ALWAYS said I breed toward the aerial standard. It's never been a secret. Someone not paying attention feels perfectly justified commenting on something they apparently know nothing about. Now that's the last word.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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pisto
163 posts
Sep 25, 2009
11:57 AM
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Maybe tony's standards of breeding are the same as your competition standards of breeding paul.
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George R.
83 posts
Sep 25, 2009
12:01 PM
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Tony
Can you explain how breeding for the aerial standard would have a negative effect on the Birds if they were entered in a Fly competition .
the reason I ask is I have been breeding for the aerial standard Bill Penson discribed in his Book for quite some time ., and maybe there is something that I need to change , so I could do better in the Comps I enter .
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George Ruiz
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fhtfire
2111 posts
Sep 25, 2009
12:15 PM
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This cracks me up...how many times have I posted on here that the Ruby's have been entered in Comps and have done well....in 06 the RUbys qualifed for the finals in the Fall Fly....and they have qualifed for the World Cup Finals too....and they have won the sac region club fly's with Pure Ruby Rollers.....is that a major comp.....08 was the first year I had just about everything crossed or crosses of crosses...LOL.
Plus it takes years to put some strong teams together of pure or crossed blood...that can compete...it is rare for it to happen fast....you have the learning curve of just prepping the birds let alone the learning of stocking and flying.....
As far as Families having it.....EVERY FAMILY has it faults...PERIOD.....and I dont care if you have Steve Smiths, Kumro, Emberton or what have you....crossing is not a bad thing....but many feel it is...and I still to this day dont know why...if you have two top notch families why not try a couple trial pairs....and see what happens...you NEVER know unless you try....what does it hurt...it is no different then trying out a new pair of pures in the stock loft....you cross your fingers and hope they produce....
I had two families in my loft....the Morts were proven in comp....winning the state fly in Utah is no easy task....but I saw the best of both families and said...what the hell lets try....what if I said...NO way..the mort family puts up points....I would still be flying two different families...or one pure..running into a possible brick wall in the future called inbred depression......but no....I did the cross with a trial pair...and I am glad that I did....are my crosses better then the two families on there own....not in the air..both families..were fast tight and good quality....but the crosses give me what I WANT and they react to my STYLE of management...so they are better in that way.
So....by all means....cross and see what happens...dont be held back by wives tales and he said she said....you try and see the outcome within your own loft..with your own eyes.....if it works....try some more...if it does not...regroup and move on...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MANN
53 posts
Sep 25, 2009
12:29 PM
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Hi to every one, I ask A question an in 20 response my question did not get answerd. Yes paul I have seen steve birds fly at his house he flew 3 kits for me an I loved his birds thats why I got a cock from him to cross in to my ruby for alot of reasons, an yes I have seen tony rubys fly tony flew the same kit for in two day and like what i saw for alot of good reasons. This cross is something im trying and just wanted to know if somebody have seen the results.
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lil_jess
176 posts
Sep 25, 2009
2:23 PM
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MANN...I got the answer...The result will be A Ruby Smith Roller...LOL...
Its best for you to try it out and give everyone some updated on how they do...I know a few and can name a few that had cross other family's to the ruby...Most majority of the crossed succeed...Good Luck MANN and hope you succeed moving up your goal...
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Home of the Admiration Of Flying Performing Pigeon...
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2009 2:24 PM
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Rocky Lofts
98 posts
Sep 25, 2009
2:42 PM
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MANN, like lil jess. said try it it and you will find out . i have crossed some ruby and monty. so has ralph, from [toughrollers] lofts. so far evrey thing looks ok. but as for ther performance, we have to wait and see what hapens. good luck, with your crosses.
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3715 posts
Sep 25, 2009
4:54 PM
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Chad, you gotta make that decision. If that cock bird is the best you have put it with the best hen you have. That would be a good start. You might look at breeding back to that Smith cock the best daughter he produces. Those three quarter birds can do pretty darn good at times.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3718 posts
Sep 27, 2009
3:02 AM
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Walter - all rollers suck in the wrong hands. Do you compete? Have you flown Ruby's? Paul Fullerton just stated he has won with them. What birds have you won with?
I don't have them so I cannot tell you how good or bad they are. I have watched them fly at Fullerton's and on a given day they could have kicked many fliers asses. Maybe even yours.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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macsrollers
198 posts
Sep 27, 2009
9:32 PM
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Mann, aren't you glad you asked your question. To each their own. Try the cross if that is what you want to do. You can see by the thread that you hit a personal button on a number of people regarding such a cross. But you are the one who spends the time, pays for the feed, and feeds and flies your birds so if you want to try it go for it. Who knows, maybe you will have success to share with all. I have seen Steve Smith's birds only once, but what I saw was enough to know he has outstanding spinners in his program. I haven't seen any Ruby Rollers in the air yet. I have 4 squeakers from Tony that will be in the air very soon and I am excited to see what they do. I am very happy with their type, especially the 2 hens. We'll see what happens. Starting with 4 birds with the upcoming BOP season approaching may not result in all 4 getting flown out to spinnin age, but time will tell. I do trust my eye for proper type and I will be amazed if I don't get a few good spinners out of the 4 if I can keep them around. Enjoy your next fly! Don M. LVRC
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fhtfire
2123 posts
Sep 27, 2009
10:52 PM
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I dont think his post got everybody riled up....not at all...The only thing that got riled up was when someone stated that the Rubys have no track record in a major comp....I have said it about a million times about the Rubys...everyone knows I fly them....they know I compete..and they know my record...its on the NBRC site...but still folks that know and have the facts...still have to talk about the RUBYs not doing it in a major comp...
That is what got riled up....Why cant someone just say that both families have the goods and see what happens..
Now....nobody answered the question of MANN because I dont think that cross has been made...but he had a lot of responses telling him to go for it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2124 posts
Sep 27, 2009
11:00 PM
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Paul R.
The very traits that Tony is breeding for..we are all breeding for...kitting, spin, speed, depth and quality.....and big breaks....that is a Birmingham roller at its best....and what I have mentioned...transfers over to comp.....if you breed for the ideal of the birmingham roller...you will do just fine in comp....so because someone does not fly in comp does not mean there birds cant do good in comp...if Tony or any breeder is breeding for the ideal...has seen many many kits and knows what a good kit looks like..then its all good...its all the same...the only difference is a fee to fly..LOL
Again...comp makes you try a little harder...that is what competition does.....if you own a business for selling shoes....and you are the only gig in town...then another shoe store moves in down the street...well now you have comp...you never would have painted the front of the store and cleaned up the weeds until you had comp....so.....if you are in the backyard...you may be doing just fine...and maybe not even noticing the little weeds hear and there..and the paint getting kind of weathered....then when you get a little competiton....then you notice the paint and the little weeds.....now you have something to go up against
rock and ROLL
Paul
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gotspin7
2562 posts
Sep 28, 2009
4:38 AM
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The very traits that Tony is breeding for..we are all breeding for...kitting, spin, speed, depth and quality.....and big breaks....that is a Birmingham roller at its best....and what I have mentioned...transfers over to comp.....if you breed for the ideal of the birmingham roller...you will do just fine in comp...
Paul, there is many that will disagree with this. As this is their is reason alone to not fly in major comps..lol.. Hey how else will you be able to put up your best against anybody's best on a national level?
(Chad, sorry if I high jack your thread a little here).
Chad, Try the cross and if it does not work I will gladly take the Smith bird out of your hands. I have experience with Steve's birds and I know what they produce on a consistent basis. Also when you have sometime look at Steve's track record (you can look it up on the NBRC site)on major fly's so you can get a idea on his birds hold up against the competition. I also know that Steve breeds to the standard and nothing less. Good luck with your pair. PEACE!
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Sal Ortiz
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