steve49
281 posts
Sep 26, 2009
8:02 AM
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in another thread someone told me he doesn't keep water in front of his fliers all the time. is this commonplace? why would someone do this, and when do you give them water if you do?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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BA Rollers
285 posts
Sep 26, 2009
8:31 AM
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During the cooler months they might only drink after eating and that is it, so having it out really isn't any big deal then. But above room temperature and greater they will drink more often. In the summer they will consume a lot when it gets over 100 degrees like it does here.
I recently had a discussion with a guy who considers himself some kind of roller god or guru. This asshole had the audacity to sit there and preach that he has all this knowledge about athletes and about how retaining water affects performance. Then he states that from day one his kit birds get to drink on only once or twice a day...even in the HOT summer. Personally I think that P.O.S. should have all of his birds taken from him, then him beaten to a pulp for torturing his birds like that.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1455 posts
Sep 26, 2009
8:43 AM
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Steve, Remember, I'm on a learning curve also, so listen to the advice of others as well as what I'm going to say.
For my brood loft, I leave water 24/7 and for my kit birds, I also leave the water unless I am going to fly them the next day. I feed twice, one half ration each time. After the evening feeding, I wait one hour and then remove the water until the next days fly is over, then I feed and replace the water, so they are only without water for the overnight. I think this helps to prevent problems such as regurgitation.
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2009 8:44 AM
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steve49
282 posts
Sep 26, 2009
9:38 AM
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Thom, how did you come up with this plan? the only good thing i can think of is the water would be fresher, and less likely to have contaminants if it doesn't sit in the kit box all day. if there's another reason, tell me. on the other hand, like BA ROllers said, how in good conscience can you allow your birds to sit in a hot box all day without water? in the cooler times of year, i don't see a problem with holding water for part of the evening. my 3 children were all college athletes, one played pro football the last two years, and man, they always have water, otherwise they will have issues with cramping etc. until i see or hear of a reason that makes sense to me, i'll give my birds water 24/7. Please, if someone knows a solid reason not to, post it. i do use the newer type plastic founts with the swing doors to keep out dust. the regurgitation thing occurred once, to one bird, so i'm not about to make any radical changes due to that.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2009 9:41 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1456 posts
Sep 26, 2009
9:48 AM
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Steve, re-read my post. I said very clearly that I only remove the water at night, after feeding and waiting an hour. This gives every bird a chance to drink. I then fly them in the morning and then feed one half ration and REPLACE the water. This is only if I'm flying them the next day. All other times I keep water in the kit box.
Thom
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pigeon pete
387 posts
Sep 26, 2009
10:05 AM
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Have you ever picked a bird up that just drank and it squirted water out due to struggling or careless handling? That's why it is common practice to fly rollers dry. A pigeon can fly with a full crop of food and water, but rolling is a different matter.
My pigeons do not have water in their kitbox, but the youngsters are left with an open door into the aviary for water for several hours a day. The old birds get fed and watered once a day and put in the boxes 20 minutes after having fed. On a hot day, if I fly my old birds a.m., and then put them away, I let them out later and around a third to half will go back to the drinker. 99% of the time they will not need topping up with water until the next day.
On a competition day, if it is hot I will let them at the water 4 or 5 hours prior to the fly as a precaution, but I never get birds dropping early because of thirst on the days when they have had no water for 24hrs.
I've almost always done it this way and I seldom get birds dropping on the loft and panting heavily.
I am always aware of the heat, and will either open the doors, and/or hose down the lofts in very hot weather.
Pete.
Wild birds in dry areas will often fly for many miles each day to top up the water tanks once a day.
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steve49
284 posts
Sep 26, 2009
10:18 AM
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Pete, i'm not sure if birds who pant after they land are doing it because they're thirsty, or if they're hot. there is a difference. since up to now, i've had water in front of my two flying kits all the time, i will say i'm convinced if they're panting, its because they're hot/overheated from rolling and flying. i think i understand you don't want your birds flying full of water, and now maybe i will reconsider withholding water a few hours before they fly in the heat. however, since my birds always fly at least 30 minutes or more, i'm not sure water or a lack of it is affecting flying time. also, i don't want any birds dehydrated during the hot summer. plus they're moulting now, so i'm sure they need all the nutrients and water they can get. since they always take a deep drink after they've eaten, they probably haven't had a drink before flying anyway. i'm going to see if i withhold water til after the evening fly and see if there is any difference in flying or rolling or if they trap in and go to the water first before eating. btw, i've never seen a bird drink before eating, for whatever that's worth.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2119 posts
Sep 26, 2009
12:11 PM
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Brian...that guy that said that about athletes does not know what he is talking about...I am an ex-athlete and body builder as well as a certifiend personal trainer for about 10 years...and I will tell you this...we never held water away unless we were cutting weight for wrestling.....and that was only for a short time..and then we had all the water we needed....and body building but that is just the day before the show to look real cut....but again..that is not athletic performance....when I cut weight in wrestling and lacked water...at the time of weigh in..I could not beat my way out of a paper sack...from being weak.
My birds have water in front of them 24/7...I never pull the water....you can mess with animals when it comes to food...but you cant with water...there is no REASON whatsoever to keep water from your birds...that is cruel and unsual punishment....I should say...let the fancier go without water for a day...LOL
Water assist the birds with digestion, flushing there systems to remove contaminates from the body, keep the muscle flush and healthy...water keeps the organs fuctioning normal and the list goes on.
When the bird get off the perch in the morning before you fly...they may take a sip of water and that is it...they will only consume large amounts of water...if they just ate...so it can assist in the digestive cycle...and if they are feeding young..during the day...when it is hot they will jump off the perch and take a couple more sips and maybe a sip before roosting.
Or if you pull the water and then give it to them..they will fill up.
Pulling before a fly is not good either.....to perform water helps....no loaded up of course..but the sip they take in the morning is all they need..and the muscles cant perform if they are depleted of water....and it will also affect the brain..etc etc.....you cant think when you are thirsty.
anyway....I have been flying for years not pulling the water and I have NEVER had them shooting water in the roll...throwing up water everywhere...or have there performance affected in a negative way.
I have heard of people pulling water and the birds land early, wont kit, crappy roll...etc etc...there is no BENEFIT to pulling water.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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steve49
285 posts
Sep 26, 2009
1:22 PM
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Thom, i did read your post, but when i said "like BA ROllers said, how in good conscience can you allow your birds to sit in a hot box all day without water?" i was referring to those who withhold water to fly their birds 'dry'. not you, since you don't do that. i should preface who i'm referring to in the same paragraph so there's no confusion. i tend to agree with Paul, and since my birds have had access to water 24/7, i needed to know if it was something to consider for the future. since the summer months pretty much negate this program, i'll have to reevaluate the whole idea. also, in the cooler months, i'm willing to bet Paul is right about the little sips the birds take during the day while sitting in their kitbox.
i'm going to mark the plastic fount with lines, like a measurer, and see how much water is consumed by the birds, noting how many birds are in the kit.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2120 posts
Sep 26, 2009
2:38 PM
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Steve,
LOL...I already did that..>LOL....back in the day...I measured the water...and I did it when I started feeding my kit birds pellets..to see if they consumed any more water then normal..and they did not.....they did consume more during the Summer....but the main consumption was in the morning after feeding....during the day...on hot days...more during the day..less in the evening.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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donnie james
766 posts
Sep 26, 2009
3:18 PM
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hay steve i keep water to the fliers just about year around unless i'm in compition i leave in for about 15-20 minutes and i pull it and feed and in the winter about dust i go out and pure the water out so it wouldn't freeze about 7:30 am to 8:00 i go out and up the water in the milk jugs and keep an eve on the so the would freeze up on me during the day
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1457 posts
Sep 26, 2009
3:21 PM
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Steve, O.K. but it looked like you were talking to me, personally. I would never deliberately mistreat my birds. I never leave them in my kit box without water through the day or any heat. I feed my second ration just before dark allowing them plenty of time to drink, then pull the water until their early morning fly. I'm retired and fly them early morning. I then feed and place their water fount back in the kit box and leave it there until the night before their next flying day. Paul might not agree but I do not see this as inhumane and my birds perform better with this regime. The only time they are without water is the night before they fly, never in the day time.
Thom
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fhtfire
2121 posts
Sep 26, 2009
4:48 PM
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Thom,
it will not hurt the birds to pull it at night...they roost not drink ... My post was to the ones that pull the water regardless of conditions... Just like on a fire call... Conditions dictate your decisions...
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2122 posts
Sep 26, 2009
4:48 PM
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Thom,
it will not hurt the birds to pull it at night...they roost not drink ... My post was to the ones that pull the water regardless of conditions... Just like on a fire call... Conditions dictate your decisions...
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1458 posts
Sep 26, 2009
6:00 PM
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Paul, You always give sound advice, based in reason and lessons hard learned. I might not always agree but I always think when you post and that is a very good thing. :)
Be safe and never for property!
Thom
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toughrollers
271 posts
Sep 26, 2009
7:11 PM
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Thom, how are you my friend.i 2nd that paul.always has good advise
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
505 posts
Sep 26, 2009
10:10 PM
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Steve....Throw it all out the window, just keep H2O in front of them all the time. Thom keep doing what you are doing the night before you fly,There not going to drink more water after they drink after 2nd feeding and 2nd fly.JDA
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1459 posts
Sep 27, 2009
7:30 AM
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Hey Ralph, I envy your time of year! I always like breeding and watching the young squabs grow. Sometimes they almost double over night. Take care my friend. :)
Joe, I have had a time with the B.O.P. this year and my birds spent too much time sitting in the box and not flying. When I could get them out they started circling down low and would not lift above the tree tops. On the advice of a good friend and a knowledgeable fancier, I started pulling the water after feeding in the evening. Within days they lifted and were 100% better. I put the water back and they went back to low flying again. I don't know if they just developed the habit of over drinking because of their extended confinement or if other reasons I don't understand came into play. I do know they reacted to removing the water until after their morning fly positively. I understand each family is different and will react differently even within the family. So this may not work the next time but it works for now.
Thanks for the input! :)
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
506 posts
Sep 27, 2009
9:33 AM
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Thom....Hope Them coops loose directions to that tree in your neighbors yard for next years breeding of thous sharks with wings. Your friend JDA
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1460 posts
Sep 27, 2009
2:15 PM
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Thanks Joe, I think the resident moved out. Now I'm seeing migrating B.O.P. but at least I can try to fly around them some.
Take care, my friend
Thom
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steve49
286 posts
Sep 27, 2009
4:02 PM
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good luck Thom, i feel your pain. very lucky here on LI, so far, i haven't been bothered. another flyer about 15 miles away has seen coopers, and friday one kept one of his kits airborne till after dark, causing them to overfly. out of 30 he got back 7 today.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Rocky Lofts
99 posts
Sep 27, 2009
5:34 PM
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hey steve good luck to you also lol
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1461 posts
Sep 27, 2009
6:29 PM
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Hey Steve, I hope you have only clear skies. I don't know how long I can keep watching my birds get slaughtered. They have to fly to maintain performance but it's hard.
Thom
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steve49
287 posts
Sep 28, 2009
1:35 PM
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Thanx Thom, you too. i think many flyers are going to lock their birds down soon, no later than late october. its such a dilemma, fly your birds to determine which are candidates for the breeding loft, and at the same time, risk losing them to bop. i didn't realize what a tough decision this will be. afterall, they're so awesome in the sky, not sitting on the perch. with the shorter days of winter, it will be pretty boring til i get my breeding loft finished.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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