Squabby*32
99 posts
Oct 19, 2009
1:07 PM
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Interesting topic. ---------- DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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ducket
55 posts
Oct 19, 2009
1:25 PM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, VAPOR TRAIL LOFTS. In Holland they use three judges using the W.Cup rules,for the 3 judges and the 20 odd spectaters, there was no doubt as to what we had just seen, they were a fantastic kit of pigeons, the best I have seen, writing is like filming, it do`s not do the birds justice. If you have a better system for judging then present it to the rest of the Roller World. Eric Laidler. (Flyer of Birmingham Rollers in comp and in my backyard)chuckle chuckle.
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2009 1:27 PM
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Velo99
2176 posts
Oct 19, 2009
1:54 PM
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File me under the lax side. lol If I have to get too deep into it to have fun then it aint fun, for me anyway. I enjoy raising and flying my birds. Comp is just a bonus. Not being a type A personality my records arent ever completely decipherable,my loft isnt ever perfectly clean and my birds arent ever just the best birds I have ever seen. I do it for me,what I like to see in the air and on the perch. I have favorite birds that shouldnt be in my loft but I like them anyway and dont plan on letting them go anytime soon. I have some nice spinners and some rollers too. They are getting better thru the years so one day I might have the ideal bird. Then again... My motto is color dont roll and peds dont fly;just show what ya got in the sky. Put up or shut up. Anyone thats ever been to my house to see birds fly will get to see birds fly. Rolling might be a different story but they will fly.
yits
---------- V99 blue sky single beat in cadance performing now earth beckons the winged drawn breath is let quickly forth orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _ \__\_/-|_| \__\____ /()_)__14___()_)\__\
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XtraDeepRoller
39 posts
Oct 19, 2009
3:34 PM
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My posts were deleted. Yeah, like we didn't see that coming!
Oh well, same old, same old.
LOL
X
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Scott
2575 posts
Oct 19, 2009
3:50 PM
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It takes far too much work to field solid teams of birds, if it wasn't for competition I certainly wouldn't put in that kind of work day in and day out year after year , it would serve no purpose and this is why you won't see teams of birds or numbers where quality is concerned when comparing backyard flyers against the bulk of comp flyers, plus many get side tracked with projects , show or pedigree. Ty, the 11 bird is far harder to judge properly than the 20 bird due to having to focus in on single rolling birds as they tend to roll individualy, it is imposible to focus in on two or more things at one time. Where breaks you don't focus in on anything but the break itself,never on a single pigeon,poor quality sticks out like a sore thumb much like a bent rims rolling down the road, the quality thing with the 11 is a farce and is near impossible to judge properly if the birds are working hard.
---------- Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2009 4:20 PM
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Ty Coleman
783 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:04 PM
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Scott, In a 20 bird kit, if you have 1 full turn with no other breaks the entire 15 mins did you count the break ? yes, did you get the multplyer correct ? you only had time to get the number in the break. Well anyway it a hour long drive from the airport to my house we can chew on it further them. Smile ---------- Ty Vapor Trail Lofts
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
530 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:20 PM
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Well Scott... Maybe you should work on going back to the old way of judging and it might free up your ability to make a picture of the kit in your mind. 1 would be a 1/4, 2 would be a 1/2, 3 would be a 3/4, and 4 would be a full turn. No fluttering turns, no out birds. Whats so hard about that? 20 birds, 11 birds. JDA
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Scott
2576 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:37 PM
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Ty, never have I seen 20 birds roll correctly (fullturn) let alone together,with me the 20 bird is all about scoreing only those that roll corectly, not just anything that just rolls, so the answer to your question is far from a cut and dry "yes" if only 5 birds out of that 20 rolled correctly it would score a 5 , if less rolled correctly it wouldn't score at all. The only difference that I look for quality wise between the 11 bird and the twenty bird is that I will accept X wing for a 1.0 in the twenty bird. Just so you know in the 11 bird I will only score those the roll with the wings up, no glitch or wing switch, and snap out of the roll cleanly and straight, all with decent speed. Ty, I look forward to spending time with you !
Scott
(Scott, In a 20 bird kit, if you have 1 full turn with no other breaks the entire 15 mins did you count the break ? yes,) ---------- Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Scott
2577 posts
Oct 19, 2009
5:44 PM
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Joe,the current system is about as good as it gets, as for the 11 bird individule birds are being scored according to quality and depth, then there are bonus points for extream speed. ---------- Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3751 posts
Oct 19, 2009
6:33 PM
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Rod Said: "...To me I define a competitor as having that criteria you are talking about as well ("mindful breeding and flying of the birds are") plus perhaps with more strict culling/selection. I got the feeling, however, that your definition of a backyard flier is actually higher than we might think as backyard flier so there might be a confusion there. It seems that your definition of backyard flier is almost sound like a competitor. Your philosophy of breeding and selection of birds seem competitive to me. I suppose the "criteria" is what gets us. Peace!"
Hey Rod, Thank You! Someone still actually tries to comprehend writing as it was intended. From your post above, I can see you actually read and understood my thoughts as they were intended and it is to your credit that you did not jump to conclusions as to my meaning regarding "backyard flyer".
X, when a post is edited, the system records the edit and displays it for all to see. You will notice there is no edit performed on that post. I guess if you can't win on substance...
No one is kicked off for disagreeing with me, I love a good debate, although people are kicked off for rude and obnoxious behavior. So unless you plan to go there next, you really have nothing to be concerned about. I still stand by what I said. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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viper
69 posts
Oct 19, 2009
6:52 PM
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Quality and depth and Quality repeat on and on Scott don't weaken which I don't think will happen.Blake
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pigeon pete
397 posts
Oct 20, 2009
3:39 AM
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We wouldn't have debate if we didn't disagree from time to time. The thing is not to make it personal. Anyone is free to express my opinion. Pete.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3752 posts
Oct 20, 2009
3:59 AM
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Pete, DITTO! ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3753 posts
Oct 20, 2009
4:01 AM
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X, I did not delete your posts!! I will ask the moderators to inform me who did it so that I know, but I guarantee you that I did not! Your bigotry on display again??? ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3754 posts
Oct 20, 2009
4:03 AM
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All Moderators, if any of you have edited or deleted any posts from X in this thread, please send me an email to indicate that you have or have not done so. Thanks!!
I have a theory... ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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XtraDeepRoller
40 posts
Oct 20, 2009
5:24 AM
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"Anyone is free to express my opinion. Pete"
Pete,
That is just too funny! LOL.
X
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XtraDeepRoller
41 posts
Oct 20, 2009
5:28 AM
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"X, I did not delete your posts!! I will ask the moderators to inform me who did it so that I know, but I guarantee you that I did not! Your bigotry on display again??? ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria"
Tony,
I never said that YOU deleted my posts, did I?
Why do you have to attack on every post? Was that "bigotry" line really needed? You need to take a chill pill sometimes.
X
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pigeon pete
400 posts
Oct 21, 2009
2:06 AM
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Scott, I know there are always exceptions, but there are guys who don't compete that breed quality rollers. I know a couple of guys in Ireland that haven't flown competition in years (one guy never)because there hasn't been the flying clubs until very recently, but they both fly good rollers. One guy who was a freind of Bill Barret has the same blood he got from England many years ago and has maintained good quality for all that time. The team performance may not be as good as a committed competition flyer, I don't know, but the quality of the roll is better than many that fly the flys.. These guys can concentrate on breeding roll, with the depth they like and are not constricted by the neccesity of flying 20 bird kits. We can all get caught up in getting ready for the next big fly at times, and this influences when we start and stop breeding, how many pairs we put together, and how many birds we retain. The guy who doesn't compete has none of those constraints and can be more focused on the roll rather than the rollers. Pete. Oh and i havn't flown much in the last couple of years, does that make me a backyarder?
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smoke747
1440 posts
Oct 21, 2009
11:21 AM
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Great post velo99 and scott. you guys are still giving good sound advice. KEEP IT UP! PLEASE! ---------- Keith London ICRC
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2099 posts
Oct 21, 2009
12:36 PM
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Good posts, pete. You said a lot there regarding the wide range of types of backyard flyers.
Eric, In Holland, if the birds break 2, then 6, then 3 within a second or so....do you score that as a 6, an 11, or a 0? Cliff
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Scott
2588 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:14 PM
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Pete, pit those guys against Englands best for quality next month and let us know how that works for them, I think that once the rubber actualy meets the road we both know how it will go. ---------- Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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pigeon pete
402 posts
Oct 22, 2009
1:20 AM
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Scott, Sorry mate I didn't realise that you had seen the rollers I'm talking about, and also the best in England. I'll bow to your superior knowledge ;) Pete.
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ducket
56 posts
Oct 22, 2009
4:59 AM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, Cliff,I cannot say how they would judge such a break, it is up to each judge to make up his own mind. The type of break you describe is what I would call a "waterfally type break", in theory, I would say that the 6 birds should be scored, having said that it is up to each judge who is standing under the kit to decide what is scorable and what is not, it is all very neat & tidy when presented here on paper but everything is not neat & tidy when standing under a kit, "waterfally type breaks" are not what I would call top quality breaks, in Holland all 11 birds would have started their roll together, thats what I call a top quality break. Eric Laidler.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2101 posts
Oct 22, 2009
9:21 AM
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Eric, This lack of clarity as to what constitues a scoreable break...what is a waterfall and what is not.....is precisely the kind of thing that causes inconsistancy in scoring kits. I have received private e-mails all over the board on this. The rules should describe exactly what is scoreable. The rules should set the standard for performance, not each judge on a different page. See if you can use the WC Fly rule wording to back up your opinion on what a scorable break is, for us.
It's interesting to note that you say your birds in Holland do not roll like I described, in "waterfally type breaks". I would truly like to see that some day! I'm afraid we see both types of performance in our kits here in the states.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2009 11:05 AM
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ducket
57 posts
Oct 22, 2009
12:03 PM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, Sorry Cliff, now I am with you, first off I would like to put 2 things right, you wrote " your birds in Holland" they are not my birds, I live in Denmark, the other point, I didn`t say that their birds do not do "waterfally type breaks" of course they do. I wanted to change the rule last year or the year before but no one else did, the reason given to me was that everyone knew what it meant, so it did not need changing, I changed it for the Euro Cup Fly, "in unison means that the birds start the roll together" so in the example you presented, only the 6 birds should score, that is what I tell everyone, so yes that is the way they do it in Holland and the judges I know in England do it the same way ( yes pete I know there are judges in England that judge everything that moves)and the rest of Europe now. I would just like to repeat what I said earlier, the Dutch lads have had a great year, their kits and birds have been spot on, they have this competition every year, the 3rd weekend in sept I am not saying that their birds are like this every year, because they are not but this year, it has all come together for them, if their birds are like this next year they will be unbeatable. Eric Laidler, Denmark.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2102 posts
Oct 22, 2009
1:11 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, Eric. I see we are on the same page then. I was confused by your statement, "in Holland all 11 birds would have started their roll together..." Tell me, what do you lads consider the minimum scoreable roll for depth? Is it the same as the WC rules state? Cliff
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kcfirl
617 posts
Oct 22, 2009
2:50 PM
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Hi Eric, Cliff, Scott, Pete,
in my humble opnion, the unison break rule change will certainly favor the UK based birds. What I mean by that is this: the birds I have seen in UK and Holland and the Mason based kits I have seen in the US, break in unison more consistently than any Pensom based birds I have ever seen.
Based on this, I expect birds based on non-Pensom strains to do better in the WC than they had previously Of course the rule change is not the only reason, the kits are also getting better, but the rule change will have a major impact if the judge follows the ruel.
I personally believe that the historical English focus on scoring turns has led to the development of a bird with more kit sensitivity than those families based on Pensom birds which started out as more of an individual performer that the English kit comp birds.
I am not trying to disparage either side although I'm sure something I say will offend someone, of that I'm sure!
Best Regards,
Ken
PS. Scott can disagree with me all he wants but until he travels to see Heine and George, and Deeno, and John W, and all the rest of the lads.......... well you know.
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ducket
58 posts
Oct 23, 2009
6:11 AM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, Cliff, "in Holland all 11 birds would have started their roll together" I said that just to emphasize how good they have been this year. As far as I know, most are ok with the W.Cup minimum depth. Ken, Up until Pensoms death, the birds were the same as in England, so what happened after his death to make the birds in America so different (if there is a difference) ? Breeding and flying Birmingham Rollers to me, is all about quality,speed, depth and team work,thats what most of the fanciers I know strive for. Eric.
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kcfirl
618 posts
Oct 23, 2009
10:32 AM
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Hi Eric,
I believe there were differences in families of pigeons and in different pigeons from the same family before his death.
I believe he was after a certain type of pigeon that was not one that was meant to win kit competitions, his selection was based on individual champion performance. I beleive most of the fa,ilies in England today that are flown in the WC for instance, went through a period where they were selected to make points by turns, thus different selection criteria.
So, in summary, I believe the birds we have here from Pensom stock came from pigeons selected for outstanding individual performance and fanciers have worked to improve kit performance from that base. Whereas the families of pigeons flown in the UK today were developed from ancestors which were selected on the basis of turn competition.
Of course, this is just my personal theory and I do not have evidence. It is only supported by my limited understanding of the history of the birds and development of competitions on the two sides of the ocean as well as my personal observation of the characteristics of the two groups of birds.
I understand that I am generalizing here as I'm sure there are birds in England that were not ever selected based on suitability for "turns" kit scoring just as there are families here, that have never been selected for maximizing individual performance and thease are the families from non-Pensom based ancestors brought over since Pensoms death.
Constructive criticism and correction based on additional data much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Ken
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3757
1298 posts
Oct 23, 2009
11:38 AM
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Ken - What you just stated below is not a theory at all but a fact and this fact is well documented.
"I believe Bill Pensom was after a certain type of pigeon that was not one that was meant to win kit competitions, his selection was based on individual champion performance"
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2009 11:39 AM
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pigeon pete
406 posts
Oct 23, 2009
1:20 PM
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As I see it WHP took birds from several English families and then applied his criteria to their development. How long did Bill live and breed these English birds in the U.S? Could the traits he bred for still be so ingrained after so many generations? The birds that remained behind in England were the same strains (although it was said at the time that he took the best birds out of England) and these birds were bred towards the needs of the kit competition from the 1960's onwards. Although having said that, I have read that Bill showed the American fanciers how to fly Engish style, which bought better kit action out of them. Why would he promote that style of flying if individual perfromance was his 1st priority? It does not do to generalize however, because we have had very good fanciers who bred very good birds that didn't do a lot in the flying competitions. Ollie Harris was a legend but I don't think his birds won him many flys. Like Pensom he bred for quality and depth first, and if they broke together then that was a bonus. His birds in the hands of others however have done very well in the competition arena, and it didn't take 30 years to get that simultaneous performance out of them. So, I can only surmise that the Pensom based birds have continued to be bred for many years on the same lines that Bill started them down, and have not necessarity been flown with a management style designed to get the best team performance out of them or selected for that trait. I think Bill died well before I started in rollers, and there has been time enough to develop sharper breaking, so I can only think that the culture of roller flying in the U.S has long tolerated waterfall type breaks. If they had stopped scoring those breaks 30 years ago like we did, or even 10 years ago, then I do not think the Pensoms would be any different in that respect from the european birds. As an example, we've never had an out-birds rule, so the incentive to remove marginal kitters from the kit or from the breeding programe was not as vital as is was for the U.S flyers, but since the WC came into operation, we have had no more breaks missed though outbirds than anywhere else as far as I am aware. In other words the rules suddenly changed for us and we dealt with it, you guys have had the tight kitting rule for years, so adding the instantaneous breaks should be do-able. The best stimulus to breaking together is the close flying of the kit, and each bird is then stimulated to roll by the action of it's fellow kit members. You need birds that like to roll at least twice a minute, but not so frequent as to be rolling individually all the time. Pete. P.S Many of English flyers have little chance to fly in the WC. It varies from year to year, but I would guess that over the last 3 or 4 years around 50% are in an area that flys the WC.
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2009 1:21 PM
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3757
1299 posts
Oct 23, 2009
2:22 PM
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There is a lot of crap out there about Bill, Ollie and others and most of it is not based historical facts and data. Bill stated a myriad of times that he bred for the individual champion (another subject misunderstood). Because you breed for the individual champion does not mean birds do not kit (if they dont they are culls), does not mean the birds do not roll simultaneously etc. etc. In the words of Bill Barratt "Me, Bill, Ollie and Jim Skidmore all had the same strain down from Richards and Bellfield (Doucet 2009 Flying Pensom Roller Club.)"
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2009 2:24 PM
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deano
240 posts
Oct 23, 2009
3:17 PM
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i love reading about history of the birmingham roller just obtained a book of articles from g mason very intresting the book is called THE COLLECTED WRITINGS OF WILLIAM HYLA PENSOM by tom l monson you can purchase these writings address 6358 lorreen place salt lake city utah 84121 very intresting to all roller fanciers
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2009 3:18 PM
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pigeon pete
409 posts
Oct 24, 2009
2:36 AM
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Hi 3757, I have no idea how the Pensoms fly as kit birds, I can only go by what is posted by you guys and that was what I was responding to. I continually read that they are quality rollers but certain families can be on the stiff or seldom side. Now I read that they will not help you guys win the big ones because they don't break with instant breaks like the European birds. History is history, and it is well documented, so what is your opinion of the modern Pensom strains? You agreed with the statement that they were not bred by Bill to win flys, but what do you think about the simultaneous breaking qualities of the pensom based famlies as flown in the U.S in 2009? What percentage of U.S birds are pure for the original imports, and do the purer strains differ noticable from families that are mostly Pensom but have been blended with the older families or more recent imports? I know I've asked a few questions, but just saying that there is a lot of crap out there, and "This does not mean the birds do not roll simultaneously etc etc" doesn't tell me if they can or they can't. As Ken said, Constructive criticism and correction based on additional data much appreciated
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ducket
59 posts
Oct 24, 2009
3:05 AM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, I agree with you Pete. What Bill Pensom was trying to do was breed more good rollers, the same as what we are all trying to do today, he sent some good birds to America, the same as we are sending good birds out to the rest of the Roller World, nothing has changed in that respect, it seems to me, it was the fanciers who came after him that picked up on the "Indvidual Champion" theme and just ran with it, you can hear them fanciers today, they are the only ones breeding the "True Birmingham Roller" I believe that these fanciers have stopped the hobby (sport) from moving forward from the year 1968, when Pensom died, in Europe the hobby (sport) has moved on since then, I believe there are fanciers in America who also want to move forward but they are being dragged back into the past, Bill Pensom bred rollers and wrote about rollers, he lived rollers in order to take the hobby (sport) forward, he did not try to keep it in any specific era, Bill was worried (quite rightly)about the way the hobby (sport) was going in the States, that is why he sent birds back to England, anyway it is up to you`s now, to improve what you have. Eric.
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3757
1300 posts
Oct 24, 2009
9:04 AM
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Pete - Did you know Monty Neibles birds trace back to Bruce Cooper (100 percent Pensom stock) and he won the world cup three times. If you listen to Monty's video he states the same. He even mentions to Heinze how close some of his stock was to 514 (Incidently he is speaking about Bruce's 3/4 son of 514 which Monty received several off of this cock. In his video he even refers to his birds as Pensom strain. So, the Pensom's have done well I would guess. Scott Cambells birds went back to these birds close, Billings and I could go on. When I mentioned crap that is true (not toward what you stated but what is out there in the general public. Most of it is crap and not the truth).
Ducket - I would like to know what fancier stated he or she is the only one breeding the true Birmingham roller? If a person states that he or she is in that same crap statement. Can you tell us who is saying this or is this the mis-interpretation of another form of judging individual birds? I have never heard anyone here say that so I would like to know also. Most here could give a rats behind about the individual champion as you stated. 99 percent fly competion just as abroad. They admire the individual bird but do not fly individual comps. Only a handfull does. Most here are all in accord to the world cup rules and forms of judging. I think your facts are way off.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2009 9:18 AM
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Velo99
2181 posts
Oct 24, 2009
9:25 AM
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When comparing backyard flyer to competition flyers,the largest part of us just fly the big two competitions every year. What seperates the two groups for the most part in my opinion is the standard of performance. From what I have heard over the years most of the backyard guys have a tendency to fly smaller groups of birds with deeper rollers than competetion guys.
As a competition flyer I fly as close to 20 in each kit as possible. Thinking about this makes me realise that a standard size kit wont necessarily allow me to see as much detail in performance as I would if I flew smaller kits. I wish I had time to fly smaller kits of birds and analyze the performance to a higher degree. With three comp kits thats almost an impossibility for me.
Are we crippling our own abilities as roller fanciers by adhering to such a rigid competition training regimin?
Pensom did imply competition would change the face of the sport.
yits
---------- V99 blue sky single beat in cadance performing now earth beckons the winged drawn breath is let quickly forth orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _ \__\_/-|_| \__\____ /()_)__14___()_)\__\
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pigeon pete
410 posts
Oct 24, 2009
10:46 AM
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Interesting topic because we each see it from our own history and we can only go by what we read on the forums and in books and magazines about you guys. So, some are of the opinion that our birds break no cleaner than yours, while others are preparing their excuse for next season,lol Only my opinion, but I think WHP, when he said about competition ruining the roller, well that was from his personal experience of competitions in England, and before the 1960's they favoured short tumblers. Rolling style and depth was imaterial except that some rules allowed a double turn for deeper birds. The fact that Bill stated in his writings that they were winning with many full turns should give us a fair idea why he held that opinion. As Eric kindly informed me, Bill Died in 1968, only 4 years after the All England roller club was formed. I don't know the English clubs history really, but I think it was the first big club in England that catered for the deeper spining birds, so Bill never got the chance to see how our competitions influenced the type of roller we were breeding. Who knows, maybe he would have reconsidered his opinion of competition flying if he had been given a few more years. Pete.
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3757
1301 posts
Oct 24, 2009
11:15 AM
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Pete - I think you are correct in that Bill would have been content and overjoyed with the judgment of spinning high velocity birds. I do however feel that there is a grave misunderstanding on what he was stating about the individual pigeon and the qualities of the rare performer. He also felt that there should always remain competition for the individual bird also. I think too many times people in general generalize too much about groups of people and pigeons etc and pigeon ideology. Those of us who were raised under Bill or his disciples still disagree on certain issues and I think that is healthy for the hobby. When everyone has to agree on everything you are leaning more towards communism to me and it is something I do not favor.
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ducket
60 posts
Oct 25, 2009
4:39 AM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, 3757, No, I cannot give you any names, because I do not know them (for ex who is 3757 ?) I have read many discusions on this forum, where one party has stated that they do not fly in competition because they are breeding and flying their birds in accordance with the standard laid down by Bill Pensom, so I assume that they believe that they are breeding superior rollers to us, I have asked about these birds on another forum and there were a lot of fanciers in the States that fly in comp, who also want to see these birds, so you tell me who they are. You say my facts are way off, it is a fact Bill Pensom died in 1968, it is a fact Bill Pensom sent birds back to England in 1966, as for the rest, as you said I could be way off. Pete, I think the Harborne Roller Club was started in 1928, the Midland Roller Club was started in 1960, with Bill Barrett as sec. Eric Laidler Denmark.
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toronto15
284 posts
Oct 25, 2009
5:55 AM
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IMO, I believe the best manager,whether it be backyard or competition flyer, would have to be a good sportsman/woman. The type of ambassador that would encourage growth in this hobby,and promote friendship.Glen.
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3757
1302 posts
Oct 25, 2009
10:19 AM
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Duckett - Your response is illogical. In one statement you state that fanciers said they breed superior rollers and in the next you make an assumption. Because (whoever you are speaking of) breeds to a standard you assume they are breeding superior rollers. How is it that you conclude this unless you believe Bill Pensom's standard breed’s superior rollers? This is the only logical conclusion. Assumption and perceptions breeds prejudice (This is well documented in the academic world). Also, my name is Dr. LaRon Doucet. How can I tell you about something you state you know about? There is a lot of gossip, BS and non-factual data going around and if you truly want to know something about someone why don't you ask the person directly? In my culture that is the correct way to do it. Going to ask others well......... If you want to ask me something my e-mail is ldoucet95@yahoo.com As I have said a myriad of times no one has a monopoly on Birmingham rollers so I still do not know of whom you are speaking of as I personally have never heard someone say I breed superior birds above everyone else?
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deano
241 posts
Oct 25, 2009
11:07 AM
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ROCKY LOFTS HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO ENGLAND TO SEE THESE SEAGULLS.
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2009 11:27 AM
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ducket
61 posts
Oct 25, 2009
12:01 PM
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Hej Lads & lasses, 3757, Thanks for your name. You are as illogical to me, as I am to you. I have nothing to ask you, so I do not need to e-mail you. Hilsen Eric.
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3757
1303 posts
Oct 25, 2009
12:23 PM
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Duckett - Sounds great to me as I am a man that will not hesitate to ask the individual directly. You are not illogical to me but as I stated your particular response above was not you. I do not ask you to feel the same but it must be clarified that your response was illogical not you.
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harrison
1261 posts
Oct 25, 2009
12:27 PM
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This year I reard 50 young and after losing plenty and many not making the grade i have ended up with a A TEAM of 20 and 11 in my other kit. I am realy happy with my A team and from what i have seen flying around from were i come from I have the best,lol I would love to put up and prove this but there just isnt a local club so thats a no go. I will be putting a yearling kit in the all england roller club UK next year so will post were i come in that. I havent been in any comps so am realy looking forward to learning from it.
in my eyes we all have the best birds dont we. I wouldnt swap my birds or get rid of them for anything or anybody. harrison H,K,R ROLLER LOFT HULL UK
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Rocky Lofts
122 posts
Oct 25, 2009
12:54 PM
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Deano, If and when i decide to change to English Rollers which resemble the seagull I will come to England to purchase these English Roller Seagulls. But at the moment they do nothing for me as we have plenty of seagulls here and I don't like these traits in your English Rollers. I did have English Rollers and I culled the whole lot because of the traits of a seagull. ---------- Cheers, Rocky "Rocky Lofts"
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2009 3:34 PM
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pigeon pete
411 posts
Oct 25, 2009
3:22 PM
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Hi Eric, I have seen a result sheet from long ago from the harbourne roller club and the name Pensom was on the list. I think this club and the Midland roller club were two of the clubs to which WHP was refering when he talked about the short tumblers being favoured and the deeper roller guys giving up. Bill Barretts club was/is the Midland Roller 'pigeon' club. I think the MRC is still going and they fly mags or bages. The Brom lads would Know better than me. Some people will read his writings, and in a passage where he describes what the old timers would do for example, they don't read it properly and then use that description to enforce a point of view thinking it was Bill's own opinion. The one we all know is the description of the roller by a previous Author Lewis Wright, "the true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconcievable rapidity" etc--- I have seen that quote on printed club material where it was attributed to WHP so you can't blame guys for getting in heated discussions about what he meant and what he didn't. I too have read on the forums, posts from fanciers that say they don't compete, and use the ideals of WHP as one reason. They may not actually say "my birds are superior" but they certainly seem to imply it. Pete.
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ducket
62 posts
Oct 25, 2009
5:07 PM
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Hej Lads & Lasses, Pete, I meant to say MRPC,Bill Barrett was sec. As far as I know Bill pensom never took credit for that quote, he said he had found it and that it was written by Lewis Wright, Pensom also flew in comp in the states, it was said he never won a y/bird comp but all ways won the o/bird comp. Hilsen, Eric.
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Rocky Lofts
123 posts
Oct 25, 2009
6:42 PM
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JDA,i almost forgot about those qualitys. that you mentioned.. so ther you go extra traits in your rollers. maybe you should be calling it searollergull ---------- Cheers, Rocky "Rocky Lofts"
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2009 6:43 PM
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