katyroller
596 posts
Oct 20, 2009
5:57 AM
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Friends,
Here is the situation. I have been looking to get a new start in a family for some time. I contacted a gentleman who does very well in the flys and he finally agreed to help me out or take pity on me.LOL He sold me 20 late bred youngsters for a reasonable price plus box and shipping.
My dilema is this. Do I fly them out like the breeder suggests or do I try to put together some breeding pairs for next year? I can't afford to make a habit of dropping the kind of coin that the birds cost me but I also don't want to start out handicapped by breeding from the untested.
Tracey
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
457 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:31 AM
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THis depends on your BOP's. Are they bad or can you fly them with out serious losses.
It would be best to fly. However if you end up with 6 birds by the end of the month, that is useless. If you can fly safely, fly. If not, talk to the breeder and see wich birds come off his better breeders and and breed.
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RT Williams
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2095 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:37 AM
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Tracey,
I don't think there is a roller man out there who has not been faced with this decision. It depends, for the most part, on the trust you have in the individual you got the birds from, the stage of your breeding program, the safety in your area of flying rollers out (BOP), and whether or not the other guy bred them. There are a few men that I accept mature birds from and breed them without them ever seeing the air, taking the individual's word for their performance. But for the most part, you will always have a question mark above that bird as a producer, until you fly out ten of his youngsters on a few different mates. If the hawks are real bad, you can't afford the luxury of flying them out for two years, always. In the early days of our programs, we cannot afford to risk the few good birds we can get our hands on. Later on, when we have more pairs of good producers, we can afford to take more chances in flying birds out before breding them. But with all those considerations, the best rule is always fly birds out for two years before you breed out of them.
Cliff
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katyroller
597 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:40 AM
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My BOP situation right now is questionable, I haven't flown anything in almost a year. I haven't been hit that hard in the past but I do have resident Coopers and the BOP are starting to migrate through my area.
Tracey
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
534 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:42 AM
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Fly them out,and start getting hit by the sharks with wings. Soon you will be with 9 or 10 left over from your 20. Or with paper from your seller,breed up several and fly them and you haven,t lost your base. If the roll is there it will show up.Don,t get in a hurry. JDA
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katyroller
598 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:50 AM
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I will say that with the results this gentleman has had in the WC and his position as a Master Flyer, I am confident the roll is strongly established in his family.
Tracey
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kcfirl
615 posts
Oct 20, 2009
10:32 AM
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If you are sure this is the family you want to go with, breed them and fly the young. Select mates based on visible traits and go from there.
If you fly them, you may lose the best breeders, plus if you are not an experienced flyer, you may not get the most out of them or recognize the right ones to pull for stock.
If you breed them, you can cull from the breeding loft, but you will be assured of having a decent start.
then you can stock the best youngsters and replace the lesser breeders from the originals.
Best Regards,
Ken Firl
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PAUL R.
107 posts
Oct 20, 2009
11:10 AM
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Around this time in the year is bop time. So, I would sugg breeding them and fly the the offspring.
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quickspin
1075 posts
Oct 20, 2009
11:11 AM
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The best thing is to breed out of them because of this time of the year. If you would of got them in February or March I would of sugest flying them. They still carry the good genes so now you just have to fly the offspring hard and not stock them till they have prove them self. This way you have 10 pairs. If you do fly them some might get loss and usually are the best ones. And you didn't got them from just any one so that is a very good start.
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Salas Loft
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3423 posts
Oct 20, 2009
11:38 AM
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Katyroller I got 20 new youngster and I'm flying them out soon as I get hit I will lock up and breed them all next year and then fly them out again.....what did I lose maybe one or two the most by the bop....but I tell you the truth I got tire of losing all to them..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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katyroller
599 posts
Oct 20, 2009
12:02 PM
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Friends,
I am leaning toward breeding and not flying the kit. Good stock is hard and expensive to come by. So far I'm in $400.00 for 20 birds (a good deal), $50+ to buy/ship a large box to the breeder and $80.00 for shipping. $530.00 total, not a show stopper but not something I want to get in the habit of doing.
Tracey
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steve49
311 posts
Oct 20, 2009
12:31 PM
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Tracey, did you discuss this topic with the breeder? my feeling is, even the breeder cannot know how well each of the 20 young he sold you will do. don't we cull birds from our best breeders on a routine basis? my point is, if he was fully aware of your situation, which is the same as all who fly, maybe he could have sold you a couple pair of his breeders, so you wouldn't suffer any losses from flying. i myself am in a similar situation, having bought 2 kits from one breeder. the breeder suggested i breed from the best of these two kits, so i'd have birds to fly out next year. however, i'm not going to chance breeding from 6 or 7 month olds, and never know how well they'd do in their second year. its a tough call either way, but like PR_rollers said, fly them out and if you lose one, then stop right there. you're only out one, or possibly two at the most, and then you can go from there. obviously the subject is one we all face, and deciding to breed from unproven youngsters carries a certain amount of risk, no matter how good their parents are.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
458 posts
Oct 20, 2009
12:38 PM
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Tracey
another suggestion could be:
Ask the breeder which pair is from his best pair. Hold on to those. Only fly them when 100 sure it is safe. Maybe find 2 pair to do this with.
Fly the rest. If the rest produce a good one put with the breeders you saved.
Just ideas. Have fun.
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RT Williams
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
535 posts
Oct 20, 2009
1:40 PM
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Like I said in my first post, Check with the breeders Pedigrees that he should have given you for that price or at lease the parents of each bird that shows how close they are to each other brothers,sisters.That is where you can see at a later date after young are flying what you like out of them,and how to put them together the following season.
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JEFF WILSON
34 posts
Oct 20, 2009
5:37 PM
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just my way of thinking i would fly them then if you stock one you know what it is if you don't fly them there will always be doubt in the back of your mind.
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pigeon pete
399 posts
Oct 20, 2009
5:39 PM
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This is a hard one, you could pair up all 10 pr presuming they are 50-50 cocks and hens.
BUT you could have a good bird and a bad one in every pair and never know it, and will learn little about which are the best producers until the second or third breeding season. I think I would fly them and pull any that start to roll with good quality and stability for at least a couple of weeks, and pair them up. Even so, you will not know if they were eventually going to turn out to be roll downs, or over frequent.
The only thing you will know is that they do roll and you will know the style of the roll, but to my way of thinking, that is preferable to breeding blind.
Also if you respect the breeder, why not follow his advice.
Good Luck.
Pete.
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MANN
56 posts
Oct 20, 2009
6:28 PM
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I myself would do what RT said do pick the best and fly the rest.
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RodSD
368 posts
Oct 20, 2009
7:01 PM
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It is suppose to be fly them first, then breed the best, but with hawks and the season, it becomes too dangerous to do so. Now you can keep those birds for now and probably fly them during spring to test. It would be another 5-6 months before they start breeding. In my experience flying birds during fall and winter will select smart birds for survival. The not so smart ones will get taken or the less strong. It is your call actually and this time of the year flying is not a good idea. I have hawks that tag team my birds.
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katyroller
600 posts
Oct 20, 2009
7:49 PM
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I did alot of thinking and have decided to hold the birds in for the winter and fly them out next spring. I may never see their full potential but at least I will get to see them fly and I won't just be giving them to the BOP. Thanks, for the help folks!
Tracey
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cr250
285 posts
Oct 20, 2009
9:03 PM
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Were they a flying kit or squeekers?
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katyroller
601 posts
Oct 20, 2009
9:07 PM
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These are a late bred kit of squeeks that have never been flown.
Tracey
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
536 posts
Oct 20, 2009
9:13 PM
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You should have the pedigrees on all the birds if you did not receive them with your birds.Good luck with your new birds and you are going the right way with proven stock. Don,t get in a hurry.JDA
Last Edited by on Oct 20, 2009 9:14 PM
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Windjammer Loft
974 posts
Oct 21, 2009
6:09 AM
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katyroller....I have been in your shoes "TOO" many times before. A word of advise. Don't "fly" anything you can't "afford" to lose. As tempting as it may seem.
Like you said "I am confident the roll is strongly established in his family". So, don't take the chance on losing them, no matter what... Keep them as
"prisoner" You'll be much farther ahead of the game... Good luck.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 21, 2009 6:10 AM
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Scott
2581 posts
Oct 21, 2009
7:40 AM
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If you got a 20 birds round they are aren't all out of his best , find out which ones are out of his very best and think about holding those back and then useing the rest as fosters.
Also try and hunt up a cull kit if you can to learn how to fly and manage off of, it can be invaluable starting out.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3756 posts
Oct 21, 2009
8:01 AM
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Tracey, as long as the genetics behind the birds is the real deal, hold them all. Breed from them and fly out the youngsters. I have been at this long enough to know that some of your best stuff does not come from the best birds and vice versa, so breed from all of them. You will lose nothing to hold them, but you can risk them all if you fly. Just be patient and let time be your friend.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2582 posts
Oct 21, 2009
8:38 AM
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My best percentages always come from my best pairs and those were also my best in the air, and these are the type that we want filling our stock.
Not the exceptions to the rule which is other wise know as a fluke, there is a whole lot more to it than the genetic make-up that may or may not pop up out of the blue randomly,there is a reason that I give no thought at all to the genetic make-up of a bird when I'm culling it.
The fact is out of that 20 he would be lucky to get 4 worthy of stock, if it was me I would want to narrow it down.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Oct 21, 2009 8:43 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3757 posts
Oct 21, 2009
9:59 AM
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When you narrow your options you have fewer tools in which to work. The more tools, the more you can build.
Every bird is a tool that has different features that can combine with one another to produce a different result. For example, if I wanted to build a house, Craftsman tools might be the best tools to use, but if all I have are the hammer and saw, I will be limited as to what house I am gonna be able to build. The more tools, more importantly, the RIGHT TOOLS the better I am going to be in a position to finish the house properly.
The point is, some birds may have more of 1 thing but less of another, but when combined, I have a better shot at getting the best of both through selective breeding. Don't take this to mean I am saying to keep junk birds as I am not.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2583 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:21 AM
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Been there done that, no thanks , the only thing that you get from that train of thought is inconsistancy all over the board, my advise to Tracey was solid and based on experiance as a flyer.
The narrower my focus with the right birds the more I inch forward, I want birds that can give it all with stability.
Any bird stocked should be taken very very serious , if I pinch something from someone you can bet that I want it only from thier cream or I wouldn't even bother.
In most of the top lofts around the country you will find a couple of key birds behind everything, there is a reason for that.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Oct 21, 2009 10:29 AM
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pigeon pete
401 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:34 AM
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Tony,
When building a strain your tools are your aquired knowledge and experience.
The birds are the foundation, the walls, and the roof.
If you build your house on this principle, would you use second hand timber from a pile without first checking it for rot and termite damage?
( :> Pete
Last Edited by on Oct 21, 2009 10:35 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3758 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:35 AM
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1 question, who stocks perfect birds? Who has stock that produces perfect birds? No one. Scott, I think you and I would like to have perfect rollers, I suppose the difference is the method we choose to get there. Neither right or wrong, just different approaches. As has been said before, if it was that easy, we would all have perfect rollers right now.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Alohazona
666 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:38 AM
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I'm with Scott on this one.Definetly narrow it down to the best of that bunch of twenty.Take the leap of faith that you will find that one or two pairs.I does not matter about the money or the bops,everyone deals with that, by their own methods.It also does not matter who the flyer is, or bred from.The breeder said to fly them,I would do as he says.Tracey,I tell you the truth,it is a shorter, more fruitfull path....Aloha,Todd
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3759 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:39 AM
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Pete, here is the last sentence of a that last paragraph in post #3757:
"...Don't take this to mean I am saying to keep junk birds as I am not."
In addition: pay special attention to post # 3758. Think on it before you respond. Thanks!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3760 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:50 AM
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Todd, I am not saying don't narrow things down, quite the contrary, you have to, but when you reach a certain point in development of your strain, things open up and you start to see a higher percentage of good rollers, this allows you more options to go in different directions.
For example, I tend to breed my Ash Red Series to produce hotter birds, then I take my Blue Series to ensure stability in the continuing generations from a sub line.
If you breed hot roller to hot roller indefinitely, you will end up with rollers with little stability. So the concept is you keep related rollers on hand that demonstrate good control (stability).
Whereas, instead on culling a infrequent roller, he may be just the tool you have to pull out of the box to put on just such a hot sub line. That's my point.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3761 posts
Oct 21, 2009
10:59 AM
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To me, a strong foundation starts best when the fancier understands the phrase "breeding best to best" is nothing more than an analogy and that like every analogy, it breaks down at some point. This then entails adopting additional mental tools/models and concepts to move forward. JMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
461 posts
Oct 21, 2009
2:51 PM
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This is a fun topic, I remember way back to last year when I was doing the same.LOL I had late hatches, not flown and was wondering do I breed or fly?
I choose to fly. Since they were late hatches and unflown after a couple months of flying I was no better off then I was in the beginning. So I bred them. I learned that:
One pair was way to hot. 5 young 5 rolldowns.
Another pair gave me a few decent birds but nothing fabulous. most not as good as this years youngsters.
The third pair I got one good bird, Falocn took it. So I will never know its true potential.
This year I mixed up the pairs. It will take another 6 months to see how that works out. Only good thing is that Brain Midduagh sent me a couple good birds from his Kit and said pair them. Hopefully they will give me something good. 3 are already in my "A" team. Which is eqaul to the the other 3 pairs combined.
Moral of this rant is I am wasting time, doing things the hard way. Picking a few birds form the air and starting that way would have been better. I have learned a lot doing it the hard way. But I wish that I would have gotten young birds, Flown them and then decided. One pair form a someones "A" kit, and a kit to fly would be a great way to start.
As I suggested before, see which birds the breeders would say have the best odds of being quality birds. Fly them if it is safe. Other wise keep them locked up. And fly the rest. It may take years to discover a good pair by trail and error.
It has been fun for me. But I could have had better birds, by now,if I knew they were good from the start.
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RT Williams
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pigeon pete
403 posts
Oct 22, 2009
1:56 AM
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Tony,
No we don't have perfect birds it is something we aim for. you said in another post:-- like every analogy, it breaks down at some point, your hammer and saw post was an analogy and I thought I broke it down quite well, lol
What is the phrase 'best to best' and analogy of?
I had read you post, no need to re-print or re-read it, and no, I agree you weren't advising the guy to keep junk birds, you were suggesting he breeds from them. I'm not suggesting that his birds are junk (that's your term I'm repeating]. BUT if you breed from birds of unproven ability you could well be breding from junk, you just have no way of knowing it.
What is worse keeping junk or breeding from it?
We all know that you can put culls together and breed good birds, and we all would do things differently, but to start out breeding from everything regardless of quality is a hopefull way of going and you may strike it lucky first time, but if you have 2 birds of exceptional airial ability in those 20 birds why wouldn't you pair them together?
I'm no mathmetician but the odds of pairing them together by chance has got to be a bit lower than the guaranteed 100% if you found out first by flying them.
All this may be just us blowing hot air because he may have other overiding considerations such as BOP problems, but this is a perenial dilema for guys starting off with a kit of young birds. George Mason will often sell a kit of Yb's and advise the buyer to do what you suggest, just pair them up unflown and then fly the next generation and cull hard from there.
I know of people for who this has worked out and I know people who wish they hadn't. Whichever way you jump you will never know how it would have gone had you jumped the other way,lol
Now isn't that just analogous of life in general.
Pete.
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Windjammer Loft
977 posts
Oct 22, 2009
5:06 AM
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Tracey....You said it yourself. "Iam confident the roll is strongly established in his family"... So late hatches or not, they are still going to be strong in the roll. Where does "junk" come in to play???? You mean to say that just because these are late hatches, they are "junk"?? Where do you guys come off saying that?? What is "junk"...
I think that the analogies that you guys use about building a house is way "off" base.. Take the "Amish"
for instance. They do not use any "power" tools. I would take any of their construction over the "Englishmen's" anytime.... Bad analogy.....
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 AM
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katyroller
604 posts
Oct 22, 2009
5:06 AM
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Thanks, for all the input. I have weighed all sides and have decided to stick with my plan of flying out the kit next spring. This seems to be the best of all worlds for me. As stated before, I know the birds will probably never develope to their full potential because of the late start on the wing but they should develope well enough to give me an idea of their potential. The breeder suggested flying them out but I don't feel like taking the risk at this time of year with the BOP. The question was asked about purchasing breeders. I would have gone that route but the breeder did not have any he wanted to part with and gave me the feeling that he preferred I picked my stock out of the air. I personally believe good stock can be selected on the ground and have done it in the past but this time around I want to try something new for me and pick my foundation out of the air.
Thanks,
Tracey
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pigeon pete
404 posts
Oct 22, 2009
6:51 AM
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Paul,
Like a lot of subjects, a couple of guys go into a corner and start their own 'debate' which often doesn't help the original questioner.
I'm with you on the costuction front, it was Tony who has a power tool fetish,lol
It was also Tony who used the term junk, but if you read his post back he isn't calling the birds Junk, he just said that he was not suggesting that we breed from junk.
One word taken out of context can start war of words.
maybe thats the non- sequiter (no idea how to spell it but I think you'll know what I'm trying to say) thing coming into play.
Hmm I didn't realise he was English though, maybe i'll start insulting him now I know, it is open season on them you know :)
Pete.
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2009 6:55 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3426 posts
Oct 22, 2009
8:38 AM
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I just had a good bird taken by BOP, I will lock down now..... I am one who strongly believe fly first breed later after testing what you going to breed in the air..but with the BOP hitting you everyday you might not have a chance to see the best out of those 20 why because he took them ..so if I can't fly because I know I will lose a high percentage of birds then I have to change my way of thinking ..breed all of them next year then fly the breeders and youngster when the BOP have left my area which is in march.. then I can apply what Scott said about narrowing my focus with the right birds but if you don't have anything to narrow down with then you going nowhere.out of 20 pigeons 4 might be good ok but if the BOP took those 4.you lose.... remember you not stocking anything you are just breeding..in breeding you find out what the youngsters do in the air and what produces for you .I tell you one thing it will take longer this way but I will have fun through the journey.then if I have nothing because I lost it all..and believe me I lost plenty ...now after that I will go back to the way I always do things fly first pick from the air but I will have enough to play with.. Tracy I like that the guy who sold you those birds said fly them before breeding.. because that's the way it should be and that's the way I always do it regardless of how much money I lose....time to me is more important,...money I can always make ,..time I can't bring back..but with BOP getting worse.I just be back to square one wasted money and no birds..so I think you made the right decision..good luck.. ..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2009 8:42 AM
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Alohazona
667 posts
Oct 22, 2009
10:47 AM
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The main thrust of what was was mentioned in my earlier post was more geared toward attribute selection.
When we fly our birds we already know their is potential.Things like quality of roll,velocity,depth potential is what you hear the most.In the end those are the things we strive for.The other things that come into play are: when they start to roll,do they roll and take the rest of the team up into the clouds?Do you have to starve them to perform?Are they consistent performers.Do they trap with the team?Metabolism issues.
I agree dealing with the bops is a killjoy,as they have always taken my best.
I understand what you are saying Tony,and agree....Aloha,Todd
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ezeedad
1070 posts
Oct 22, 2009
12:30 PM
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Tracey,
If the birds are from a well bred family.. Not a lot of crosses in it.,, they should produce their equal. You will not be behind by breeding them, or at least breeding your favorites. You can always breed more if you have the originals, but you can't replace the originals without going back to the bank. Also your best rolling birds often are not your best producers.
From twenty birds you should be able to make some good pairs. You have a good eye.. I know from comments you have made in the past. I say concentrate on your stock loft first.. They will take care of the rest of your program. You've done your homework, now you need to explore the potential of those rollers.
I have read the thread and know that you have decided to fly out the birds in the spring.
Your Friend, Paul G
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Velo99
2179 posts
Oct 22, 2009
5:54 PM
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Tracey
If it was me I would do both. Do what Scott said and find out which if any came off the best pair(s). Keep two or three pairs,then fly the rest.
Good Luck
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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wishiwon2
216 posts
Oct 23, 2009
9:13 PM
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Tracy, my only caution to your plan is; if you wait til next spring to fly them you may end up culling the whole lot. Unflown birds rarely kit/fly/roll well. In my experience the longest Ive had sucess in holding birds to trap and kit train is about 3 1/2 mos. old. Older than that and they just dont want to fly or kit and rarely develope in the roll normally.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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katyroller
606 posts
Oct 23, 2009
9:39 PM
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Jon,
I hear what you are saying about waiting too long. I've been talking to a local friend and he threw out a pretty good idea. He wants to give me some culls to fly to see if the BOP are going to eat me alive.
Tracey
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3429 posts
Oct 24, 2009
6:50 AM
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I agree with Jon ,to get the best out of youngster is best to get them out early .if you wait till past 3 month you will have problems especially with kitting..good luck Tracey..----------
Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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XtraDeepRoller
43 posts
Oct 24, 2009
7:30 AM
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Ralph,
It's too bad that you didn't listen to that same advice that was given to you a few years ago, you would have been ahead of the game today. Must have changed your mind now that you've got those expensive California birds.
X
"I just had a good bird taken by BOP, I will lock down now..... I am one who strongly believe fly first breed later after testing what you going to breed in the air..but with the BOP hitting you everyday you might not have a chance to see the best out of those 20 why because he took them ..so if I can't fly because I know I will lose a high percentage of birds then I have to change my way of thinking ..breed all of them next year then fly the breeders and youngster when the BOP have left my area which is in march.. then I can apply what Scott said about narrowing my focus with the right birds but if you don't have anything to narrow down with then you going nowhere.out of 20 pigeons 4 might be good ok but if the BOP took those 4.you lose.... remember you not stocking anything you are just breeding..in breeding you find out what the youngsters do in the air and what produces for you .I tell you one thing it will take longer this way but I will have fun through the journey.then if I have nothing because I lost it all..and believe me I lost plenty ...now after that I will go back to the way I always do things fly first pick from the air but I will have enough to play with.. Tracy I like that the guy who sold you those birds said fly them before breeding.. because that's the way it should be and that's the way I always do it regardless of how much money I lose....time to me is more important,...money I can always make ,..time I can't bring back..but with BOP getting worse.I just be back to square one wasted money and no birds..so I think you made the right decision..good luck.. ..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~ "
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3430 posts
Oct 24, 2009
2:06 PM
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X you say >"Must have changed your mind now that you've got those expensive California birds"
Wanna know something funny I didn't pay one cent for the 20 youngsters given to me.. it was a gift from a friend in Cali. ..you know some people when you give them something free they say what the heck I didn't pay nothing for it ..so what if I lose them...but I'm the opposite I appreciate anything given to me .
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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Bill C
443 posts
Oct 25, 2009
10:54 PM
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Tracey, Did you decide yet? It seems half the guys say yes and half say no. I like what Ken F had said.
If you know this breeder and he has an established blood line or lines then you are sure to do better by breeding them over the next three years than flying them out and losing them to BOP this time of year.
I had bred from 25 squeakers that were not flown out having bought them in the late fall season also. Except the owner said, "You should breed them since they are strong on the wing". I have no regrets. They have become the best birds I have.
It truely is best to fly out birds to eliminate the roll down or out bird, However we also limit ourselves into thinking performance in the air makes the grade, when we might have a bird that will throw velocity and quality and never breed from it because it was a brother or sister to a champ and it never made the grade in the air so never got to show what it was capable of.
Percentrages is what most are after and knowing your birds in the air really helps out in this area but I can honestly say I did it the other way and maybe I got lucky and it is not the norm. I have no desire to buy a bird from anyone in the country and I bred from 20 to 25 unflown squeakers from a guy who had a good bloodline going back many generations.
I would only recomend doing this from a guy who has an inbred family or a solid blood line for many generations under his belt. Bill C
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fhtfire
2142 posts
Oct 25, 2009
11:15 PM
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Tracey,
Man...everyone on this board brings up good points....you could fly out the birds...but like Ken said....you may do something wrong with the new family and not know what birds are good or bad...then you have the BOP issue as well as the standard losses in homing in the birds.
Scott C. is right...you do want to fly them..but he is speaking as a seasoned vet and not a new flier...new fliers may not know what they are looking at in the air to pick out the best....
Then you could breed the birds and get nothing like one person posted....but you do have to realize if the family has the goods...I really cant see it a bust to just put them together.
The more experienced fliers will tell you to fly.....because that is what they would do...they would rely on there experience to pick the best birds...key word..there experience....if you are fairly new then you cant really rely on that....
I will be honest and I have really thought about this....if it were me....and the family is from an established family......I would not even pick the birds out to pair...the fact is that when we meaning me and all put our new breeders together..we are guessing and hoping they will produce..we can call it skill all we want and that is just smoke and mirrors..we have no way of telling if a bird is good or bad until it produces.....we just play the odds...anyway...get my point...you have nothing to lose
Ok....back to what I would do....since they are all young and they all have the genes....I would just throw them in a pen and let them all mate up on there own....breed some young off of them......keep LOTS of notes on what each pair is producing.....then I would switch the pairs up based on what is producing in the air......you will soon see a pattern of good birds coming from certain pairs..or just certain individual birds...now if a cock or hen is producing good numbers on different mates..then that is even better...that means it is the individual producing and not the pair...that is what we call a foundation bird...RARE>>>>.DUMP the ones that are not working....or dont pass on the goods....and then circle the wagons around the select pairs....or individual birds
It will take 2-3 years to find out what a bird is producing.......their is not an easy way to do this in a short amount of time...just take lots of notes....and dont dump the breeders until you have at least tried them on at least 2 different mates......trust me the cream will rise to the top fairly quickly....
If you fly out the birds and you paid good money....you may loose your money and your best birds.....and you lose a year of time.....flying out birds......as a NEW flier and I have not forgot what it was like.....I would breed and not fly....that is how I started...I bred....and flew the young....and if they did not produce....they were disguarded..or used as fosters..but get the out of you loft if it is open......if you run individuals..then you can use the fosters...keep the fosters away from your main breeders....
Plus you learn more flying the young....and seeing what traits in your breeders are producing the birds that match your management style....what the original fancier may tell you to mate up...may produce the same for you..management styles usually dictate the family's direction not the birds or peds...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2009 11:23 PM
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