nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3746 posts
Oct 29, 2009
7:14 AM
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Can velocity of the roll influence the depth of the roll? I have casually observed that some birds posessing a high velocity spin have a extended duration in the spin, but the distance of the spin seems not to be totally reflected.
Can it be that the dynamics of the roll (a backward sumersault) can change the rate of decent by an increase in the velocity?
I think the dynamics of the roll actually attempts to contereact against the forces of gravity and the higher the velocity the slower the decent. What do you think?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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katyroller
618 posts
Oct 29, 2009
7:24 AM
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Nick,
I can agree with where you are going. I have seen birds that would spin with such velocity that they appeared to freeze in place momentarily except for their rotations. I noted that these birds were not deep birds and did not appear to start dropping until near the end of the spin when they would start to slow in the spin.
Tracey
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2106 posts
Oct 29, 2009
7:58 AM
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NIck,
It is certainly logical that a faster, harder-spinning roller would take a little more time to extirpate himself from the roll and fall a little further in the process, but it does not always occur this way, and some birds are more efficient at doing so than others. I think that the dynamics of rolling are multi-faceted, and it is hard to hang our hats on any particular postulates about the phenomenon. For the most part, depth is primarily a factor of the duration of the roll impulse. It seems to me that given the same amount of roll impulse, birds with higher velocity usually ball up tighter...and this tighter balling up would seem to offer less wind-resistance, therefore increasing the speed of descent and depth. More loosely balled-up birds would seem to have more wind-resistance acting like a parachute, thereby slowing their descent and making it easier to snap out at shorter depths. But as Tracey said, we have all seen birds that seem to spin in place with great speed. I think that the speed of forward flight when the spin begins is a big factor with the amount of drop during the spin. The birds that set up and stall before rolling would tend to drop more with the reduced forward speed.....those that tend to fly fast forward and slightly upward when they spin are the ones that seem to spin in place, with the forward momentum and velocity of spin counteracting the pull of gravity for a moment. I'm not sure that I have ever seen a bird set up, stall out with little forward momentum, and then spin in place. That would be pretty difficult to achieve. As I said, it's a complicated and multi-faceted event, and it is difficult to assign cause and event to what we observe on the ground. We can only surmise.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 8:17 AM
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3757
1309 posts
Oct 29, 2009
7:58 AM
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Nick - The ones that spin with extreme velocity and appear to not decend are jewels and pearls to me. Nick I hope you are well.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2107 posts
Oct 29, 2009
8:02 AM
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La Ron,
Personally, I, too, tend to be in awe of such birds....but I value them less for competition, because such birds are often overlooked in a big break....by myself, as well as most judges who are looking for separation from the kit. Fortunately, these birds are rare enough that it is not a huge consideration.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 8:17 AM
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gotspin7
2573 posts
Oct 29, 2009
12:09 PM
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Nick, I call that rolling in place. I have a little bronze hen in my A kit that no one ever notices that does this often, she also will spin 40-50 foot, when she wants too. She is now in the stock loft as of Tuesday afternoon. Lol.. Thanks for the visit and what you and your traveling partner do for our region. See you in December. ----------
Sal Ortiz
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Gringo
14 posts
Nov 17, 2009
3:10 PM
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does the size of a bird have influence on the depth?
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Spin City USA
260 posts
Nov 17, 2009
3:43 PM
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Good observation Nick, I have 4 hens that have shown that quality. I quit flying them and now have them in the breeding pen. It seems like they defie gravity for as long as possible. Cliff see's what I have seen about the speed going into the spin vs. those birds that set up and then spin. I am wondering if wing placement during the spin has any impact on this trait.
If the velocity and quality are there is it posible that some birds are pulling themselves down on the initial stroke and some are pulling up on the initial stroke? I dont think size has much to do with it. It is something to see, the seperation in distance from the kit when they are both on the same plane.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3778 posts
Nov 17, 2009
4:00 PM
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My opinion is that the only way the bird cannot fall upon initiating the roll sequence is that it either continues to create sufficient "lift" with wings beats to make it momentarily stay in one spot or its forward "momentum" may be making it appear stationary for just a few moments as it snaps backward and goes into the roll or a combination of both. JMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Ty Coleman
817 posts
Nov 17, 2009
6:34 PM
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I refer to these birds as floaters, and I have only had a few of them. I believe it is the angle and speed they are flying before the roll that causes it but tha is only my opinion. They are awesome though !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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babyshoes
29 posts
Nov 17, 2009
9:38 PM
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That is why the club i flew in ,in south africa used stop watches to time the duration of the roll , and i have never seen a south africans watching a kit fly with out a stop watch arround his neck or in his hand , for that particular reason as many birds in south africa roll on the spot.
Ron.
Last Edited by on Nov 17, 2009 9:39 PM
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Ty Coleman
818 posts
Nov 18, 2009
3:24 AM
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Ron, I have never been outside of the USA so dont take this as me being a smart arss, but do you guys have alot of updrafts ? I wonder if the weather conditions play a factor ?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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babyshoes
30 posts
Nov 18, 2009
7:34 AM
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HI Ty . i really dont think we do have many up drafts but what i can tell you is that the conditions for rollers is allmost perfect . very little bop problems , if so we aliminate the problem ,we might have a few windy days but we still fly .the club i flew in, we flew a 6 bird ,8 bird and 12 bird with 1 judge per bird , and one umpire ,the umpire would clock any bird at random ,and cross check with the judge on that bird , and slowly we knew who were the competent judges ,then we added the total number of rolls per bird and the No: of seconds the bird rolled , we all so gave 1 point for grouping and 1 point for flying ,if a bird was out of the kit for longer than 3 minutes he would loose his grouping point , but was still scored on rolling .if a bird was out of the kit and not visible for more than 3 minutes he was DQ,6 birds no down birds were allowed , 8 bird ,1 bird down ,12 bird 2 birds down .
He Ty sorry for all this jubber but i just thought i would tell you how our club worked ,and it was very sucessful,and we got the true performance of the bird.
Ron.
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2009 7:36 AM
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Scott
2618 posts
Nov 18, 2009
7:44 AM
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Absoluty deration plays in, I will take in "duration" on the depth multipliers for birds that are really nutting it up.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Alohazona
669 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:54 AM
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"nutting it up" with a "God Bless" at the end.You are original,Scott,lol.....Aloha,Todd
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weissman379
12 posts
Nov 18, 2009
3:02 PM
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Very little BOP problem! I guess i'm moving to So Africa. LOL
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DeepSpinLofts
1599 posts
Nov 18, 2009
8:22 PM
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I have a Lavender hen NCRC #1936 that displays exceptional velocity (10ft-25ft range) and is a rather frequent spinner. A few times I have observed this bird literally shrink in appearance (size) during rolling like a black hole being swallowed by anti-matter.
Let's talk about the roll. Duration of the roll is often brief (less than 2.75 seconds), however motion & time are displaced in sequences of space which allow gravity to create a stationary illusion.
Below are my findings (notes) based upon the law of physics & enertia after doing research on this aerial phenomenon by true Birmingham Roller pigeons (spinners).
NOTE: The weight of a spinning bird is assimilated from the radius (core) of the mass beyond which the continuity of the gravitational constant starts from the center of gravity at point A ending at point C.
The next point to rolling (the climax) is a place we will refer to as point B.
...moving on
The activity that takes place between point A and point C is where gravity causes a rolling bird to descend swiftly beyond point B or the continuity of space-time. Constant gravity force causes the rolling mass (Birmingham Roller Pigeon) to drop with velocity.
where:
c = constant gravity
m = mass
f = force
2.454687 x 10-59 m3/s is a constant unified volumetric gravitational FORMULA that can best describe a true rolling pigeon (high velocity spinner) in flight.
Thus, h/c2 = mc/f2
...or
h/c3 = m/f2 and h/c3 is the formula for the continuity of space-time/gravity or shall we say point B. This is the high velocity spinning point between A & C.
Talk about an awesome sight! What actually goes on during the start and completion of the spin is one of aerodynamics. We all should be grateful to exhibit such spectacular acrobats in the air.
....well anyway
Back to NCRC #1936. This roller never fails to return swiftly to the kit after a break. Body type is a knock-out (the type usually desired for the progeneration of true performing rollers).
You will not find many birds that are as well disciplined & magnificent in the air as her. Though she is not a champion performer, #1936 is what I would truly describe as a team player on the squad and would definitely be missed if not in the kit.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 1:49 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
1621 posts
Dec 19, 2009
1:27 PM
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Several weeks have passed and there are no more BOP hanging around my place.
Thank goodness!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lfts
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donnie james
837 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:07 PM
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hay nick i have to agree with you 110%...............
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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pacos bill
108 posts
Dec 22, 2009
5:39 PM
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Nick great observation. I feel that the higher velocity roll does slow the downward decent, due to resistance caused by the rolling motion creating a type paddling effect if you will agonist the air this slowing the decent.
As seen in many fast rollers the bird seams to almost spin on a shaft loosing very little or no altitude, this only occurs at the very start of the roll while the bird is strongest, and as it weakens the roll slows in creasing the downward velocity.
Just adding to your take on things Pacos Bill
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