rollinfever
147 posts
Nov 07, 2009
9:44 PM
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For example if bought a pair of rollers from a good rollermen.like jerry higgin richard jaconnette, rick mee etc..and i never out breed it with any other strain and as time(years) goes on would you guys say that its still pure jaconnette,higgins etc? i was just wondering because i read its better to get it from the great roller man himself than from someone who bought that bird from him..
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Sound Rollers
100 posts
Nov 08, 2009
12:42 AM
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Is it better? Would your loft be their home away from home? Do you think you would someday say "Is this as good as it gets" with no new blood? I like the challenge of creating something else, put my own brand on it.
John
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Ty Coleman
803 posts
Nov 08, 2009
5:48 AM
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Rollin, I have a different outlook than John. As most of you know I fly and raise my family of Vapor Trail Rollers which are direct descendents of James Turner & Don Greene's line of birds which are both the same. All of my breeders are within 4 generations from these guy's and over half of them are directly from them. If I bomb out in a fly do these guy's get credit for it or do I, the same if I do well. They are my family being I bred them, although they are pure to there family. Every family has strong and weak points and learning these points to every family is a job in itself without bringing in faults from multiple familys. I think the thing to ask yourself is does the strong points out weigh the weak, If they do. Put the work into refining the family to your liking. If not scrap them and go visiting lofts to see what you are looking for. When you have the stock you want start builing subfamily's to keep the loft pure but not to inbreed to closely. As far as getting birds second hand from the origional person .I have no problem with it as long as they are reputable breeders them self. I have several birds from Cliff and Jay from there family of birds. Which are still pure to James Turners family. These birds make great subfamilys. It's like bringing in new blood but staying in the family.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2009 5:52 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
1593 posts
Nov 08, 2009
5:43 PM
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Well said Ty. Makes a lot of sense.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3460 posts
Nov 08, 2009
5:44 PM
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I agree Marcus..----------
Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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Sound Rollers
101 posts
Nov 08, 2009
10:41 PM
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Are they Birmingham Rollers or are they Jerry Higgin Rollers and so and so on? Ty, will you ever put your stamp on your line of birds? What does it take for one to attach his or hers name onto the Roller or is that something that can't be done? Is the Ruby roller a Birmingham roller?
John
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Ty Coleman
804 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:27 AM
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My stamp ? When I band a squek I consider it my family, good or bad. I have also taken my birds to the finals 2 years in a row flying in 2 different regions against many Championship fly winners ,master flyers, and hall of fame guy's. Although I would rather forget the finals this year LOL.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Windjammer Loft
998 posts
Nov 09, 2009
5:46 AM
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rollinfever....here is another take!!! As long as you keep breeding from the "original" stock the birds are still "pure". Eventualy,you will need to bring in birds of the same "pure" family from somewhere else to replenish what you have bred out.
As far as calling them by "your" given name. You can do that right from the start. These are "your" birds now. But,you must always refer to them as "Jerry Higgin-Richard Jaconnette-Rick Mee bloodline.
In the Canine world this is how it is done too. When you breed from "Champion" bloodlines you can use
"your" kennel name. But,you refer to the puppys as out of "Champion" so and so blood lines.. Hope this helps explain...
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Sound Rollers
102 posts
Nov 09, 2009
9:29 AM
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Hey Ty, Paul
I'm trying to figure this out. So, if I got birds from you guys, I would be getting your family of birds with a lineage that goes back to other family's? I would roll them out and start my own family of birds with lineage to your lofts. But I could describe them even further in the family tree i. e. who you got your birds from. Maybe I'm getting to deep into this.
John
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Velo99
2195 posts
Nov 09, 2009
12:38 PM
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If they do well they are mine. If they suck they are his. j/k
Sound,
None of that name stuff matters. Dont fall prey to name recognition. Pick em out of the air, or use birds in YOUR loft that produce YOU good birds and work with them. Even if it is just one pair.
Breed birds together that work together. Breed cousins and sibs back onto the producers. In four or five years you might have the kinks worked out. Dont get 400 families in your loft,been there done that took three years to straighten it out.
BUT now I am on the right track and even got a few surprizes this season. Next year will be the beginning of MY family. All the players are in place and I have a few birds from the last three years to breed back with and several seeded in the local vicinity. Now I have three years to look for THAT cockbird out of what I produce.
I have three sib hens that are pretty good producers, I need the special cockbird to start them up as a subline to breed back onto my stock birds in three years to not get too tight. The subline is what most guys call"The Special Project."
As for what to call em... call em your rollers.
One more thing for Rollin`,if you get a pair or two from a guy thats all of his genetic material your are getting, four birds worth. If he has been around for a while chances are he has 10-20 pairs. So you are going to have a very limited amount of the actual genes to work with in comparison. Breeding bids "just like his" is unlikely. You can probably get some that perform similar to his with some of the same characteristics but "just like his", probably not.
Thats why we call them our line when we feel comfortable doing so.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 1:46 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2131 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:02 PM
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Scott and I discussed this issue when he stayed here during his judging of our region. I like his philosphy on the subject. (Don't pass out guys!):
"There are good and bad performers in every fanily. But it gets down to individual pigeons within the family that, first of all, can perform; but most importantly, can produce performance. The tighter your gene pool, the easier it is to find those individual pigeons within a given family."
That pretty much says it all when it comes to breeding rollers, as far as I'm concerned.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 4:03 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2132 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:04 PM
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Ty,
You have learned well, and put it to work for you, in the short time that you've been at it!
Cliff
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Ty Coleman
805 posts
Nov 10, 2009
3:58 AM
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Cliff, Scott and I also agreed and talked about the same topic. He was able to walk in my stock loft and pick out my main cock that I use, he actualy said he liked the bird. He also pointed out another cock and hen that he liked, both of them were the 07 birds off of my main cock that I had stocked, go figure. He looks at the mental strenght and character of the bird and gave me a good explanation of his thoughts.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
806 posts
Nov 10, 2009
4:12 AM
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Cliff, I owe my doing good so far to James ,Jay, and yourself for providing me with a good stud of birds to start with and you guy's always answering every question for me. I think the only difference in the way we are doing things is I chose not to use those few birds that had that Hayes blood in there background. They were great birds in the air and reproduce it but I wanted to stay pure. Scott and I talked about brother sister matings and we both agreed that we did not like to do it but he had a great thought about doing it. If a brother\sister mating could not produce great birds then the line of birds had more faults than strong points and then the line would not be worth pursuing. That makes sense to me and when you go back to the mating of 007 to 096 you will find on my pedigrees 3 generations of brother to sister matings after that pairing, and my main cock is off that line.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2136 posts
Nov 10, 2009
10:21 AM
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Yep....mine too!
Cliff
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birdman
736 posts
Nov 10, 2009
11:42 AM
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Ty, are you saying that Scott told you about the mental strength and character of YOUR stock birds just by looking at them ? Or are you saying he explained in general what he looks for from his own birds that he's flown?
Russ
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Ty Coleman
807 posts
Nov 10, 2009
11:58 AM
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Russ, he explained what he looks for in general in all rollers, it just so happened to be my best bird and 2 of his offspring which are producing great that he picked out.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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birdman
737 posts
Nov 10, 2009
1:37 PM
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OK Ty, Thanks.
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Windjammer Loft
1000 posts
Nov 11, 2009
3:53 AM
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Sound Rollers..... you said "if I got birds from you guys,I would be getting your family of birds with a lineage that goes back to other family's"?
No....you wouldn't be getting "other" families. The birds would all be from the same lineage. "Not" other families. Don't read more into this then what it is..
I have to agree with Velo99 though. Where the birds came from is imaterial. As long as you start with "good
performing stock". Once you get the birds, it's up to you to get the best out of them..
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2009 3:54 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
584 posts
Nov 11, 2009
8:04 AM
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The way I look at it is, If you have crossed two or more family,s to come up with something you like and stay with,Then it is your family.But if you have birds from only pure breed family,s with no out crossing,it is not your family you are just proud to breed and fly the family,s you choose. For me it is Bill Patrick,s pure Bill Pensom birds from the black country.I also have pure Ruby,s. Both family,s will stay that way,Pure.JDA
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Scott
2608 posts
Nov 11, 2009
8:53 AM
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It isn't about any particular family. It is about searching out those few key birds that produce the goods, and their prodigy do the same and then building around those, and you want those key birds to cary the entire package, not ones you need to fix.
It takes a lot of time and weeding through (I weeded through a 100 I bet of the same family) and there is nothing fast or easy about it,the better option is out of a tight long bred family that has been bred strictly for performance where show or pedigree played no influance nor were they bred to sell in large numbers. You will mold them into a seperate family to the point of being a total out cross, so in my mind there is also much more than just banding them.
Most just chase birds for name without searching and honing around key birds and tightening in , the chase never seems to end for most, and this is why they allways attach someone elses name to their birds, they never quit dragging home pigeons and built anything, crossing families has nothing to do with anything and is a step backwards in the big picture .
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2009 10:24 AM
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gotspin7
2580 posts
Nov 11, 2009
9:24 AM
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Scott, I agree! 100% about time you post something that makes sense. LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
585 posts
Nov 11, 2009
10:07 AM
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Scott... You have no clue.Ask LaRon,If it,s in the family it,s in the family. JDA
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Scott
2609 posts
Nov 11, 2009
10:12 AM
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I'm sure that you are right JDA,I have no clue , I am just a simple flyer.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless"
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2009 12:53 PM
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