rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
483 posts
Nov 12, 2009
7:08 PM
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I have been follwing the rule discussion about a rolldown and a early lander. I am wondering what is worse.
I think that a bird for what ever reason decides it needs a break and lands early is better than a rolldown. A bird that lands early may just be having a bad day, got hit by another bird in the air, or some other excuse.
I can think of no good excuse for flying a roll down.
If I was judging my own kit, I would not be happy and would demote a rolldown, or cull it on the spot, before the early lander.
If I was scoring I would think that I would give the early landed a chance to return to the kit before a rolldown.
JUst wondering what you guys think is worse, a bird that lands early, or a rolldown?
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3792 posts
Nov 12, 2009
8:43 PM
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The rolldown or the act of rolling down has to be considered as the bigger fault. Both can be a cull by being habitial.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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XtraDeepRoller
54 posts
Nov 12, 2009
8:46 PM
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They are both culls in a comp team.
They should have been culled way before they would be around to compete.
Three strikes and your out, is a good rule to apply to problem birds.
X
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Spin City USA
257 posts
Nov 12, 2009
9:23 PM
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I think the early lander is worse. as it chose to land early for what ever reason. The roll down is another matter. There is no reason to have one in a comp kit but it happens. You push some birds too hard and mess with their feed and they may become unstable. I have had some birds that were solid for a year and a half then rolled down. It is not a choice in the roll downs.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2143 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:47 AM
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It depends on the situation rt. In my family of birds, either one can be an indication of an unstable bird that needs to be culled, OR either one can be a sign of an immature bird that needs to mature a little more, and may be salvageable as a kit bird. It also depends on whether this is a chronic problem for the bird, which would tend toward the unstable cull; or whether it is a rare occurrance for the bird leaning more toward a salvagable performer, possibly.
Cliff
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Spin City USA
258 posts
Nov 13, 2009
2:51 PM
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Older seemingly stable birds turning into rolldowns is making me look at what I am picking to use in my breeding program. This is why a lot of people say you have to fly them for at least two yrs.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Velo99
2201 posts
Nov 14, 2009
6:33 AM
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There are several ways a bird can rd on comp day without being unstable.
The first being the kit is over prepped.
Too little or off type feed.
Weather conditions can play a part as well.
The performance is 2/3 manager and 1/3 birds.
An automatic response of "unstable bird" is such a cop out. I would think its situational more times than not.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
234 posts
Nov 14, 2009
7:42 AM
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I am in tune with this discussion..but I would like to bring attention to all flyers that fly in the mid to late fall...look at the molt of the primary flight feathers. When there is a blood quill in the 7,8,9,or 10th flight..there is pain and discomfort to the bird, thus often it will not fly "the time" or have control during a hard spin. I have seen racing homer men make the grave mistake of sending birds with blood quills, only to loose large percentages of them...and good hard spinning rollers to come all the way in or hit a building, that have previously done very well, but had blood quills and did a poor performance because of it.
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De Oppresso Liber
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
485 posts
Nov 14, 2009
7:43 AM
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Velo 99
I think that you are right, that what we do cause a lot of problems. Which is why you see some one do really well with the same birds that another can barely score a point with.
My thoughts are still, rolldowns are worse. An early lander is probablly my fault, to little food, not enough, to much fly time, not the right kind of food, etc.
A roll Down can be affected by those same things, but I think in general he was going to RD anyway, or at least bump. THus a weaker bird.
I agree both are culls.
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RT Williams
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fhtfire
2211 posts
Nov 14, 2009
11:13 AM
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Kenny good post,
it is all about habitual.....an early lander in my loft will not get a head removal.....because there are so many things that can go wrong..A bird can come down for a number of reasons...weak, sick, hurt, moult or just not feeling good....so it can be a freak thing...a bird that does it often is a cull...even a roll down....if I have a bird that never hits and comes out of the box a little hot on comp day....for whatever reason it makes a mistake....that is not a cull...if it does it often then it is...or if it does it everytime you get the birds in shape..then it is a cull because it cant handle being in top form...and if it continues to roll down...my best stock bird bumped hard before and came down early one time....but none of the offspring do and like I said it was one time....anyway....you have to be hard on the birds to move forward..but you also have to have common sense....
Culls do it alot...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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harrison
1284 posts
Nov 14, 2009
12:16 PM
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WELL.
I have a hen 09 bird that has the two problems you have posted.
First off she had come into the spin realy hard and fast for the first time two weeks ago.
She was having problems getting back to the kit and was just flying solo for a few laps then re grouping.
Now she has started to bang when landing.
I have tried to work with the bird but she just doesnt want to work with me.
Maybe its just that she carnt bcause she has NO controle whatsoever witch is a total shame.
She has the best spin i have seen in a young bird and maybe the best for a while to come but this bird has no perch at my loft anymore.
Somtimes we have problems that we think we can solve and spend that extra time trying to do so and it turns out there was nothing that we could do.
In futre I will still give my problem birds the help to try and pull througth as its all part of the game.
thanks to all the guys who gave there help and support.
I dont care what i would rather have roll down or land early.
There both issues that need to have time spent on them so I would rather have non of them but if i had to pick it would be land early.
Roll downs just are a wast of time as far as i am concernd.
Like the hen i said about above.
she had issues and i tried to help but now she has started to bump I no longer have the time to give this bird.
yours in roll harrison
CRAVEN PARK ROLLER LOFT HULL UK.
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
487 posts
Nov 14, 2009
12:36 PM
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Everyone thanks for your thoughts!
Paul
I agree with the "it is all about theHabitual" I can forgive once maybe twice, I will even spend a little time fixing a problem, extra feed, rest, or whatever. But when it happens over 3 times and you know it is going to happen again it is time to let the bird go.
Thanks again everyone
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RT Williams
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Ty Coleman
810 posts
Nov 14, 2009
3:20 PM
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Bruce that is a great point you made about the molt.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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wishiwon2
227 posts
Nov 14, 2009
9:40 PM
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Kenny said,
"There are several ways a bird can rd on comp day without being unstable.
The first being the kit is over prepped.
Too little or off type feed.
Weather conditions can play a part as well.
The performance is 2/3 manager and 1/3 birds.
An automatic response of "unstable bird" is such a cop out. I would think its situational more times than not. "
In my opinion you are right, there are lots of reasons they might hit the dirt besides being unstable.
Example; I flew my team today for Scott, at release, I had 3 or 4 crash. It was embarassing. But I dont consider my birds to be of weak character or unstable. It was snowing, with a foggy sky, I mis-managed them and there were people in the yard watching; all the above are reasons a bird might doing something stupid. This team is mostly 07 and older a cpl of 08 and 1 bird is 09. They arent unstable or they would have self destructed over the past several years already. It was just one of those days.
RT, I believe both birds could have a fault. I differentiate a bit between bumpers and rolldowns. A bird that hits the ground from any height or one that continues to roll on the ground after it has hit, are stone cold rolldowns and are culls. Those that crash occasionally going out/coming in are bumpers and need to be watched closely. Repeated bumping is a culling offense, especially when coming in to land (IMO). I believe they should have got that nonsense out of them whilst flying.
Birds that land early may do it for alot of reasons, already described above. If this behaviour becomes regular, consider culling it too. Landing early is often a symptom of instability, excessive roll impulse or weak character. These same attributes are also manifested in birds that fly out of the kit continually. Birds with these characteristics should not be used to breed from. Fly them as long as you can tolerate them and they dont interfere with the rest of your kit, but eventually they will have to go.
I wouldnt go as far to say whether one is worse than another, they are both faults for which I would remove them. My only caution is excercise a little patience. Try to determine why they did what they did. Dont make excuses for them that they dont deserve, but realize they arent machines and they will screw up from time to time.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2009 9:40 PM
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winwardrollers
327 posts
Nov 15, 2009
8:31 AM
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Trampas
Thinking about your question...I would have to say that my best birds never did either...came down early or rolled down. I agree with all the good comments you have got but I think you will find... over time.. you will not find either bird a good pick for a breeder.....I'm not so rigid that I can't see that a bird will have a bad day..sick, hurt, not properly conditioned. It hard getting started in this hobby but the harder you screen now the better your birds will be. Just take note's of your observations of each bird over the year's you will find a pattern of what works and what doesn't. Good Luck
bwinward
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