nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3793 posts
Nov 12, 2009
11:12 PM
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Coopers populations have skyrocketed and a lot of the growth may have been brought on by the innocent home feeders of wildbirds. The numbers of various wildbirds have grown and brought up the population numbers of Coopers Hawks.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Richard
117 posts
Nov 13, 2009
3:21 AM
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Nick
One of these days the #**^#@*feds might wake up and reasize that the hawks are eating our song birds too. Wonder what they will do then. I use to have many different song birds in my yard all summer, now only few robins and doves. I guess that is the way our country is going.
Richard
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2142 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:30 AM
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Nick,
I guess we need to make up our minds as a hobby, as to whether we believe that the increase in Coopers populations is bringing about a reduction in songbird populations as they prey upon them...or are the birdfeeders increasing the populations of songbirds, thereby increasing the food supply and populations of Coopers. I tend to believe the former rather than the latter, based on the population studies. The Audobon reports I have seen, actually report a reduction in the songbird populations, though they point to reduction of habitat as the cause, rather than predation. Have you read some data to the contrary, Nick? Otherwise, we need to be careful of the personal opinions that we express on public forums about this issue, (not picking on you, Nick), especially if those opinions are strictly conjecture and not based on facts or research of any kind, lest the "powers that be use" our own words against us. At least we should identify those as strictly personal opinions and deductions with no basis in research or populations studies (if that is what they are)when we express them. Hopefully action will be taken at some point in time to correlate the well-documented reduction of songbird populations as one of the indications of the dangers of allowing accipiter populations to go unchecked.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2009 6:33 AM
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katyroller
632 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:17 AM
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I too agree that BOP populations have caused a decline in song bird populations and I don't believe the song bird populations were the cause of the BOP population explosion. The BOP explosion was caused by the breeding/release programs. By breeding BOP's in captivity for release, we increased beyond normal levels the number of young that survived long enough to leave the nest and the overall number of breeding pairs.
It would be wrong to alienate backyard birdwatchers
/feeders by suggesting that they are a contributing factor to our woes. If anything they are a valuable allie in our fight to get the Feds to address the BOP over population issue.
Tracey
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2009 7:19 AM
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ezeedad
1076 posts
Nov 13, 2009
8:51 AM
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From what I have read on the subject, The main things affecting songbird populations are invasive species and habitat destruction.
English "sparrows" are now the most numerous bird in the U.S. They have out competed and outbred many native birds, causing hundreds of extinctiions.
Starlings are a huge agricultural pest as well as a nuisance in cities.
Pigeons (our species) are another alien species that was introduced from Europe.
Invasive plants have also outcompeted some native plants which are the natural food of native songbirds or the food of what they eat.
BOPs populations were at a low level because of DDT in the environment, which caused them to have difficulties reproducing. When DDT was discontinued the BOP populations rebounded..aided by captive breeding of falcons, etc. That is what we have been experiencing since the late 70s/early 80s.
Paul G
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markw
14 posts
Nov 13, 2009
9:43 AM
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In my opinion all birds of prey are doing very well. A few years ago here (in Iowa) I looked out over a field a farmer had spead manure on and out there were about 30 bald eagles feisting on whatever the farmer was spreading.I have a guy I work with that said he watches red tails follow him while he's combining corn so they can capitalize on the combine spooking rabbits,mice,ect. out for them to eat.
I think if we set the table they will come.
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steve49
331 posts
Nov 13, 2009
2:24 PM
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it probably is true that feeding songbirds as they migrate thru our region may help them survive an otherwise risky migration. however, manmade objects, including office buildings which at night glow so bright, that many songbirds are drawn to them, but tire from being confused by the lights, and weaken and die from being delayed along their migration route. only recently, out west, electric utilities began replacing red insulators from their towers, as thousands of hummingbirds were mistaking them as flowers, and getting electrocuted as they attempted to feed from them. man has has such an impact on songbirds, mainly from habitat destruction, but many species have adapted. the problem is the bop's are able to take them as their numbers swell during migration, but especially at feeders. i wonder if we put out feeders(if you already dont have one) to attract house sparrows, and now the bop's have a source of food in addition to our birds. do coopers even try to catch english sparrows? its like lions eating a rabbit, just so small it wont even take the edge off their hunger.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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fhtfire
2202 posts
Nov 13, 2009
4:51 PM
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Steve,
I have a feeder right next to my loft for song birds....blue jays...doves..you name it...and again...I dont get hit as often as most...why..my balance is not messed up yet...the coopers are getting just enough to survive....but I really dont think they are hitting as many song birds as we think....why try and catch something that is WILD and has natural instinct to get the hell out....when they can take a big fat well fed pigeon that is easy..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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katyroller
633 posts
Nov 13, 2009
9:09 PM
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I look at my neighborhood and I have to say the BOP, Coopers in particular, have to be eating the song birds and the the doves. I am the only pigeon fancier in my area. I have not flown anything for close to a year so I know I'm not feeding the BOP. I have seen an increase in the Cooper numbers and have observed that there appears to be more resident Coopers. I have noticed a major decline in sparrow numbers. I will say that in my area there has been an explosion of Eurasian Collared doves which are the size of a BR and are pretty tame compared to the white wing and mourning doves, so they may be the main food source for the Coopers.
Tracey
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michael salus
78 posts
Nov 14, 2009
8:36 AM
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Paul, I can only speak from my experience, but there is no doubt in my mind that the coopers are having an effect on songbirds numbers. I live in the city and the coopers are everywhere. I see them eating songbirds all the time and they love rollers. As far as shutting down, trust me it doesn't always work. I flew from my inlaws for 4 years until the BOP found me there, so decided to try back home. 1st time out at my place got hit by the falcon... 4 years is a long time. Of course my circumstances are different... one block away are railroad tracks and hundreds of wild pigeons.My plight might be different, but I find nature adapts to the circumstances and these BOP will adapt. I do think the songbirds are getting killed by large #'s. There used to be lots of Robins in the city and nesting in my yard... they haven't nested in our yard in 7 years and I don't see that many either. The songbird issue might be the way to go with the DNR and hopefully birders would get on board with support. WE are in a tough spot. Peace!!
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MJ
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fhtfire
2209 posts
Nov 14, 2009
9:00 AM
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MJ,
You are right about the songbirds....in many heavy populated BOP areas they will hit the song birds...that is what they do.....but my point I was trying to make is the fact that the BOP explosion is not from song birds in the Urban areas....it is from us pigeon fliers....again..look at the numbers of pigeons being lost....in areas like LA where there are a high population of roller fliers in small areas....that is what is feeding the hawks.....
I understand about moving to an area that you have not been to in 4 years....and that falcon attack could have been just a passer by..or just happens...I too get hit by falcons every now and then...but my point is the heavy populated BOP areas....it is not uncommon to lose birds to BOP that will never stop....25 years ago I would get hit by BOP when I was a kid....but my main point is the areas that are losing 5-6 birds every fly......and again....songbirds are getting hit because of the explosion in the Population of BOP....and when you have 14-15 BOP living in a territory that would normally have 2 0r 3......that 14-15 are hungy and a couple fliers locking down for whatever reason and not flying for a week or so will have and impact on the BOP and they will get hungry and go after the next step down and that is songbirds....
Trust me...I have talked to Raptor Experts from the California Raptor Center.....and as much as we think we know what we are talking about...and saying locking down does not help...well...the experts are saying different...and I myself listen to the professors with 20 plus years of experience...you must remember that these experts...live...eat and breath BOP just like we do rollers...so we have to listen to what they are saying.....I will put it this way....if a BOP guy asked us about rollers....they will listen because we they lack the knowledge......we should listen because they have the knowledge of BOP....if you had a broken pipe in your house....would you listen the the plumber or the garbage man.....
Anyway.....there is only way to stop what has started...and that is take away the food source..if we dont...then it will only get worse.....no action will do nothing......
rock and ROLL
Paul
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michael salus
79 posts
Nov 14, 2009
10:12 AM
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Paul, Maybe I didn't explain MY situation well enough. I had been flying at my house for 15 years before I decided to fly from my inlaws and the reason I went to my inlaws was because of the BOP's ... mostly resident falcons that do not migrate and nest and live a mile away. After 4 years of not flying at my house, the 1st time out I got hit. The thing is if I lockdown, which I am at the moment, they just feed on the wild pigeons and birds in the area. Trust me they don't leave. Not all situations are the same and It just gets old to hear someone say ... just lockdown. It works for you and thats good, but it doesn't work for everyone. The problem is that there are toooo many BOP and they will adapt. By the way I've met some stupid plumbers...lol. I agree we have to figure out something and All suggestions should be looked at, but what works for some might not work for others. By the way I'm not trying to argue, just a discussion, so I hope you don't take this the wrong way. The more we talk about these type of things, the better chance of finding a solution.As I write this I'm looking at a cooper sitting 100' from me. Waiting... well he'll have to wait till Jan. Peace!! P.S. Another problem is our birds themselves... wild pigeons and songbirds will leave the area for a while when attacked and our rollers aren't going anywhere and the BOP's know this. I have had falcons fly right threw a flock of wild pigeons to get to mine. Hate that...lol
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MJ
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2009 10:49 AM
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wishiwon2
228 posts
Nov 14, 2009
10:00 PM
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It is a basic biological principle that prey (food resources) control a predator population, not the other way around. Yes there will be temporary and minor swings in populations of both. It is almost non-existant in nature that a predator population controls or keeps supressed a prey population.
The exception is huge, however. Non native or artificially supported predator populations WILL and DO control prey bases. Ex; feral cats. A cat can go home, or to a garbage dumpster if it isnt sucessful hunting and still keep itself alive. It may be and is likely so that we are artificially maintaining coopers hawks by our feed them, at bird feeders or pigeon lofts. The increase of wild birdfeeders may have boosted the songbird pops which in turn allowed hawks to increase. Then as songbird pops decrease, hawks search out alternate prey sources, pigeons and we give it to them. It is an artificial system.
I dont have the answer. I do believe that we can help ourselves tremendously though by flying smarter. The solution likely wont come quickly though, it will take years to reach a new equilibrium.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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