nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3826 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:15 PM
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He (a scribe) is not to scribe for his own kit. If there was nobody else; the judge should have scribed>
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
178 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:19 PM
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"I would NEVER allow a person who is flying a kit in a fly to keep score for the other Flyers" who are his opponants ( his Competition ).......
I am not talking about scribing his own Kit Nick ...
....
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2009 9:21 PM
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fhtfire
2218 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:22 PM
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It is not uncommon for someone to scribe if they are flying in the region......In our region..we pretty much rotate or whomever wants to scribe can scribe..flying or not....you just cant scribe for your own kit.....I trust everyone in my region to put down the points as the judge calls them...but multipliers do have a bit affect and a scribe has not way of knowing how close it will be until the multipliers are put up..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3828 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:26 PM
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Ferrell has always been my scribe when we fly my region and he always competes. But, when he flies someone else scribes. I am usually Ferrell's scribe in his region during the WC, but someone else scribes when I fly.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
179 posts
Nov 18, 2009
9:36 PM
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I understand Guys ... But i dont think it is a good idea because if the person scribing wins the Fly and the person that he scribed for finishes a close second it could lead to someone believing they may have got ripped off...
So what I usually do is have a person that is not Flying in the Fly be the scribe... Also a good thing to do is to have the Judge CALL out the numbers so others can keep thier own score...
I just think it is a good way to avoid problems... Thats All . Thanks Guys
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George Ruiz
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wishiwon2
232 posts
Nov 18, 2009
10:31 PM
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I dont distrust anyone in my region enough that I would have a problem with them scribing. I see your point about avoiding the appearance of wrong doing, but its a pigeon fly, not the superbowl. There really isnt anything significant at stake to be upset about winning or not.
My personal feeling is if you want to cheat to beat me, you should have just asked, I'd have given it rather than have someone cheat it from me.
If you think it may become an issue George, it sounds like you're taking a wise precaution in whom you choose as scribe. I simply dont think its a big enough issue to enact a rule about. Its hard enough getting a judge from outside the region let alone a judge AND a scribe.
If we begin the whole thing with distrust and suspicion in our heart, how can we ever develope an environment of fellowship and promote the hobby, to our regional memebership or recruiting new participants?
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Windjammer Loft
1002 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:07 AM
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I am "Lov'en" this....... More ammunition against competing....
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
558 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:31 AM
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Paranoia seems to be rampant this morning. Did they put something wierd in the water in Vegas? I can't see anything wrong with it. In Region 5 Nick and Ferrell do it for every fly, no problem.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 7:10 AM
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pat66
430 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:52 AM
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--------Some of you guys should lighten up and just enjoy your birds! LIFE IS TOO SHORT!--
Pat
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George R.
180 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:59 AM
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I am not saying there is anything wrong with it Joe....
I am simply saying that in order to not give any flyers any reason to complain after the fly As a RD a person should always try to take some precuations so that no one can claim that they didnt get a fair shake in the Fly...
it would avoid lots of problems and infighting in some regions and CLUBS...
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George Ruiz
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
169 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:59 AM
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And some people wonder why some of us stay in our own Back Yards Dennis
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George R.
181 posts
Nov 19, 2009
7:06 AM
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Paul
just a couple of months ago I wouldnt have agreed with you .. but now that I have been told by some Flyer's what they have expierenced , I am no longer against anyone sitting out of the Flys.
I fly Birds for myself FIRST so I am going to continue to focus on that ... I will no longer try to persuade ANYONE to fly in the World Cup or Fall Fly...
i must say that I have never expierenced any wrong doing myself but Many Flyers have told me they have... I dont think for one moment that these respected men would be making up all those accusations... Some guys dont even know each other and thier story's are very similiar just different names and location's.
Paul you continue to enjoy your Birds and you will remain the WINNER ...
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 8:54 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
559 posts
Nov 19, 2009
7:08 AM
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Yeah Dennis, the more I read on these sites, the more I think I may do the same. Just fly in my backyard and the local/state club that we are trying to get started here in the "Land of OZ."
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
597 posts
Nov 19, 2009
7:09 AM
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Well, If the Multiplier system was to be sent back to Boise,ID where it was though up for judging,I would train a kit for flying again.Stopped flying when it came into the hobby.JDA
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Mongrel Lofts
608 posts
Nov 19, 2009
8:49 AM
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Joe,I really don't understand why anyone would quit flying because of a quality and depth system? The system was built to reward deeper faster rollers and to make it so the better rollers could compete with with the short working kits . The kits I would call tumblers. You quit rollers all together Joe. Not just competition. Joe, shouls a kit of slow 10 footers get the same points as a turn of 40 foot screamers? The 1-2-3 system gives more points for deep good rollers. Why would anyone be against that? Just wondering. KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 8:55 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
560 posts
Nov 19, 2009
8:58 AM
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I think the current scoring system is good. As Ken says, it rewards the better kit of rollers and separates them from the tumblers. I think this is what WHP warned about years ago. Beware the frequent tumblers, preserve the fast and deep spinners!! It may lend itself to some subjectivity but that is why you must choose the judges wisely.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Mongrel Lofts
609 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:18 AM
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George,
There is nothing wrong with having a fellow competitor scribe for the judge in my opinion. Unless you have a bunch of guys who think everyone is out to cheat them. What a sorry way to think of your fellow flyers. Maybe we need a set of afermative action rules so some flyers can win, or get their praise, deserving or not! Point is there is little wrong with our competitions. The problem is the poor attitude of just a few bad apples in the sport that whine and give competition a black eye. NO RULES WILL EVER KEEP THE WHINERS FROM FEELING CHEATED!! Just the way I see things. KGB
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2146 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:46 AM
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.....Those who seek the devil will find him wherever they look.....and those who seek God will find him wherever they look.....weird ain't it?
Cliff
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George R.
182 posts
Nov 19, 2009
10:01 AM
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Ken
Just to be clear here in our region we dont have a problem ,no one has ever claimed they didnt get a fair Fly...
In other regions in other parts of the country their are those who feel that they have been done wrong by certain individuals who control the Fly's ( RD'S )...
You say they are all WHINNERS ... Ken if you only knew who these Guys were you would change your Mind ... Most of these Guy are Veteran Flyers and well respected Men in the Hobby...
Can you please tell me why you feel that if someone doesnt agree with the way things are done they are automatically Whinners..
If that is true then all those in our Country are Just a bunch of WHINNERS because they dont like the way our President Barrack Obama is running the U.S.A. .. dont you agree ??
Or are people only WHINNERS when they dont agree with YOU....
Let me point out some ways that people can try to influence the out come of Fly's..
. scheduling certain Flyer's to Fly in the hottest time of Day.( how about rotating the schedule to give everyone a fair shot ? is that hard to do )
. Bringing in a Judge that is Biased towards a certain line of pigeons. ( how about getting all the Flyers input before the selection of the judge is made )
. not putting out a Fly schedule and distributing it to the flyers within a decent amount of time before the Fly.. ( this is a no brainer , everyone needs to know when they should feed their kit)
. allowing a contestent to scribe for the Guys he's flying against.( this allows a unfair person to short change the other Flyers)
. allowing a flyer to fly when only the judge and the flier are present.( not very wise)
Again I am not saying that everyone or anyone is cheating I am simply saying that if the people who are in charge of getting the fly's done ( THE RD's) use some common sense and take some small precautions they could help avoid some of the problems that are occuring in certain regions.
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 10:02 AM
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fhtfire
2219 posts
Nov 19, 2009
10:10 AM
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All I say is this...if you question the integrity of another man without proof..you are a true loser....and you if you complain about getting second and use an excuse and think you got ripped off..then you are in the wrong hobby...key word hobby....its just pigeons...I mean one year..Chuck Roe, Dwight Wallace and myself were all within 1 point of each other...and there was never a question of the scribe even though the scribe was one of us...plus the depth and quality multipliers make the biggest difference if the Raw is close to the same....and usually they are very different score sheets...but may have the same points....meaning.....there are to many factors to play into trying to cheat....because you dont know how many breaks your buddy had..you cant memorize a score sheet...and you cant determine what the judge sees in depth and quality....and a good judge will glance down every now and then to make sure points are being added..I know I do...
anyway....I just say this..if you lose you lose..plain and simple....and why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory..LOL...anyway....I think every region can do it the way they want and I tell you this...I trust every flier in my region enough to say...that I would have no problem if a flier was a scribe for his own birds...I think it depends on the region...you can always have a bad apple in a bunch...and then the region should make that rule if there is a problem...and if there ever was a problem like that in 9B...I am sure it would be corrected and a rule implemented...but I dont see that happening in our region...to many good people..and do this for the friendship and not the comp.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
2208 posts
Nov 19, 2009
11:07 AM
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George,
I dont understand the point of your thread here. You came on bascially accusing other regions of cheating without any proof other than,
" i must say that I have never expierenced any wrong doing myself but Many Flyers have told me they have... I dont think for one moment that these respected men would be making up all those accusations... Some guys dont even know each other and thier story's are very similiar just different names and location's."
What the heck is that all about? If you are going to make these kind of allegations you better have some names to go with the statement above and not post it here but to an official who can do something about it.
This is pointless and way out of line
Stir that pot,George, stir that pot.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 11:09 AM
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George R.
183 posts
Nov 19, 2009
11:24 AM
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Paul
I am not sure you understand. The reason I dont allow flyers to scribe for the other Flyers and the reason I change the schedule around is so no one can say they didnt get a fair Fly..
I dont do these things because I am questioning anyones integrity I do it so none of the participants ( Flyers) can say that they didnt get a fair Fly...
Kenny
If you want some name's call me at 702-238-2640 and I will tell you and you can call them and verify what I am talkng about..
Now that you have called me out on this I expect you to Call me and call those and report on the list what your Findings are AGREE Kenny.
If you dont call me then I will only conclude that the only reason you posted your reply was that you just felt like typeing on your keyboard SO PLEASE CALL ME..
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 11:27 AM
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Velo99
2209 posts
Nov 19, 2009
11:51 AM
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George,
Why would you post this on an open forum?
These are issues to be handled at a local level not on an open forum.
Now you want me to call you and post my findings...
I am not getting sucked into whatever your game is here.
Especially when it doesnt involve my region.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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George R.
184 posts
Nov 19, 2009
12:01 PM
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Thanks Kenny
For a minute there I actually thought you really were interested in hearing from these Flyers .
when these Guys told me what was going on in their region's I could have said "Hey as long as It dont affect me I dont care"
Maybe that what I should have done because it seams as if no one is even interested in the Truth .
I have already told these Gentlemen to Call Rick Shoening and to explain what their concerns are .
Anyway thanks Ken but if you change your mind just call me ...
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George Ruiz
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2149 posts
Nov 19, 2009
2:15 PM
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I am beginning to be suspicious of the motives of any flyer who cannot resolve issues from within his region, and chooses, instead to go outside his region or to a public forum to complain to others, and in order to "resolve" his problems. It is too easy to sway remotely located individuals by providing half truths, mis-information, distortions, opinions, judgements and criticisms to those "outside" individuals rather than the real facts. However, I am open-minded enough to believe that anything is possible, so the NBRC and the World Cup each need to establish a Grievance Committee that is designed to hear these complaints, investigate them, gather information, and come to a resolution of the issues for the good of all concerned.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 2:15 PM
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George R.
185 posts
Nov 19, 2009
2:27 PM
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Cliff said
"However, I am open-minded enough to believe that anything is possible, so the NBRC and the World Cup each need to establish a Grievance Committee that is designed to hear these complaints, investigate them, gather information, and come to a resolution of the issues for the good of all concerned."
Cliff
I hope I can be of some help to get this going... NOT for me but for all those FLYERS that feel they have been WRONGED.
Then maybe next time someone tells me they got wronged on a Fly , I can tell them "dont tell me tell the grievance Committee .......
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 2:28 PM
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fhtfire
2220 posts
Nov 19, 2009
2:47 PM
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First off...we are all adults here and if these guys have a problem...they need to talk about it within there own region. Not hard to do....then bring it to a vote...if most want it one way...you go with the vote...that is just life...you cant make everyone happy...and second...the only time I will do anything for another region is if someone wants me to bring something up in the EC...but it is not on an open forum..and weather I like it or not...its not my region....I dont get involved in any disputes or crap from the Cali regions.....I take care of my own region....I too have lots of friends in the hobby from other regions..but if any come to me complaining....I may give them advice on how to handle it...but again...I am sure these people can speak for themselves...but to be honest....let them handle it themselves...I sure as hell would not want an RD from another region messing with my region.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Mongrel Lofts
610 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:25 PM
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Cliff,
You may need to have two grievance committees. One for Mad Whiners and one for the rest of the sport! LOL KGB
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JBow
119 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:46 PM
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If in dought use a voice recorder.
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JBow
120 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:48 PM
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it wouldn't be nessessary
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JBow
121 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:52 PM
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for the most part us birds flyers should be senators and congressmen
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JBow
122 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:55 PM
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well that was all wroung
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macsrollers
221 posts
Nov 21, 2009
11:14 PM
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There is nothing in the water in Vegas. How come every time someone voices an opinion the City or area that person lives in is targeted. A lowlife named Art from Vegas gets birds from a guy in So. Cal. and doesn't pay for them as he promised. Then it is posted all over the internet that degrades Vegas and our club and the guy isn't in our club. I have told my fellow club members if he is ever allowed to be then I am out. Yes, I am very defensive as we have put alot of time and effort to try to support the hobby and grow our club. A few of our club members are more outspoken then me, but they are entitled to their opinion. Just don't judge a whole region or club on the opinions of one or a few in that region. The subject of this post by George has serious implications of what some feel are cheating and wrongdoings in some regional flies and certain higher ups in the national club. So the better place to address that is in that forum, not in this public forum as it is counterproductive to those that don't know the whole picture and then consider it whining, etc. Too bad such a great hobby suffers from actions by individuals that are out of integrity. Those that cheat may get away with it, but at some point they will suffer the consequences. But until I personally witness cheating I can only guess as to who is right and who is wrong with the accusations. George voices his opinion because he cares about the hobby. People from other regions come to George with their issues because they know George has the _ _ _ _ s to voice his opinion and they feel when they try to address it in their own regions it gets swept under the rug. So now some of you know a little more of the big picture behind a post like this from George. Will that help, who knows. I'm just taking my turn to voice my opinion as well. Enjoy your next fly! Don M. Mac's Rollers LVRC
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gotspin7
2600 posts
Nov 22, 2009
5:45 AM
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Guys, the only thing I believe is that thru these birds and competition I have met some great honorable people.
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Sal Ortiz
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