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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Insomnia Questions
Insomnia Questions
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1510 posts
Nov 19, 2009
9:19 AM
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Hey All, This might illustrate Val’s point. I might be about ½ of a bubble off plumb or slightly out of the box. Insomnia provides time to ponder questions that might or might not have an answer. Therefore, here goes! :)
I am talking about one breeding pair and their prodigy from one breeding season as an illustration.
Questions:
1. Will a breeding pair produce prodigy that have different potentials in any particular order? In other words are the first, middle or last prodigy born, better then any of the others because of the order they are born in?
2. Does the order an egg is laid in determine the sex of a bird?
3. Does the order an egg is laid in increase the potential of the prodigy?
4. Age withstanding, does the number of breeding seasons of the parents increase or decrease the potential of their prodigy?
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 9:20 AM
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Electric-man
2475 posts
Nov 19, 2009
12:31 PM
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These are intersting questions, just wanted to bump them to the top of the list!
Thom, I have the opposite problem! I dozed off twice before I got your 4 questions read. At what age can I look forwards to this insomnia thing?
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Val
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3833 posts
Nov 19, 2009
1:35 PM
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Thom, we are not smart enough to give a good answer. Hell, we still can't figure out what a landed or crashed bird represents in competition(LOL).
1. I believe that a breeding pair does produce prodigy with differing potential, but I have never observed or read about the order born influences the outcome.
2. The same will be said by me that I have never observed the order eggs are laid determines the sex. I will say that through my observation that 9 times out of 10 there will be both a female and a male in each clutch. It is rare that both are of the same sex. Now, that is my observation in my lofts.
3. Again, I have not observed that order influences the potential.
4. I have had old birds do just as well as the younger in producing good potential prodigy.
I have to believe that some one has done a study on this and I will make an attempted to locate one.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
234 posts
Nov 19, 2009
2:45 PM
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Thom, I'll give you my answers to your questions; (its progeny not prodigy)
1. Will a breeding pair produce prodigy that have different potentials in any particular order? In other words are the first, middle or last prodigy born, better then any of the others because of the order they are born in?
Certainly there will be variety in a pairs production, but the genetic potential is not dependant on order. However, the development of each individual is tied largely to the environment it is raised in. Often times late hatches dont turn out as well as earlier ones, not because of genetics but because of the conditions they faced as youngsters being flown in and developing. Some scientific evidence suggests that the parents 'pigeon milk' is more rich and contains wider array of micronutrients earlier in a breeding season as compared to later. If the nourishemnt they receive as squab in the nest affects the end product (a good spinner) then order does make a difference from round to round, again it is environmental, however, and not genetic.
2. Does the order an egg is laid in determine the sex of a bird?
I do not know. But it doesnt seem reasonable. What would be the biological advantage to produce one sex more than another in a specie that mates monogamously and both parents are involved in raising the young?
3. Does the order an egg is laid in increase the potential of the prodigy?
No. The process of meiosis which creates the sex cells, sperm and egg, is a random sorting of genetic material. Each gametocyte is created independantly from the others and is random, therefore, there is no genetic potential difference based on 'birth order'.
4. Age withstanding, does the number of breeding seasons of the parents increase or decrease the potential of their prodigy?
I dont know if it increases or decreases but the potential is there for it to change. As parents age the genetic material becomes a tiny bit more brittle and there is an increased potential for genetic crossover (A term refering to a portion of one chromosome becoming attached to or switching with another) and abnormal chromosomal differentiation. The genetic code can get mixed up within a single sex cell and the resultant offspring would be a genetic variant that is different because of the age of the parent. This is rare and typically only happens with moderate to extreme aged reproducers. It is only detected a small portion of the time it occurs and it effects are most often inconsequential.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1513 posts
Nov 19, 2009
3:26 PM
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Hey guys, thanks for responding.
Nick, I agree that the progeny (Jon) :) are not always equal even to nest mates. Perhaps as Jon suggested it's environmental. Therefore results might be manipulated with the use of strong fosters. My loft is very small so I am constantly searching for any means to maximize quality.
Jon, Would pampered fosters produce pigeon milk with extra vigor? If so, could this increase benefit overall health in the long term? Would single squabs fair better then those competing in the nest?
Thanks
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 3:29 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
497 posts
Nov 19, 2009
5:17 PM
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First I agree with Jon on his thoughts. And hope that I could have answered as well
Thom, I think that pampering, and resting fosters betwen rounds, so that they keep a higher level of body fat, and health, could help.
I would have to ask if you see a lot of difference between your rounds?
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RT Williams
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Pinwheel
17 posts
Nov 19, 2009
5:27 PM
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Jon, Do you still have some of the literature that suggests the quality of pigeon milk throughout breeding season? Or know where to find it, or the journal it came from. Ill do a search too.
Phenotype = genotype + environment
So environment does play a role. But if we know not the mechanism behind the roll, I say its hard to ascertain 100% how even genetics and/or environment play a role.
I wonder about hybrid vigor/heterosis in pigeons. TO some extent, by cross breeding breeds of pigeon you might get an individual far superb than the parents. WHich if that translates to being a much better "rearer" or producer of high quality pigeon milk all through the season, then that may be an advantage. But that is definately an experiment to be pursued.
Who would use foster birds knowing that they could produce far better quality of pigeon milk for longer time, if they knew it had a positive effect on potential of your birds????
Maybe say, a natural way to "juice" your birds...
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 5:32 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1514 posts
Nov 19, 2009
5:52 PM
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RT, I have pondered why there seems to be so much diversity within a breeding season. I am seeing improvement within my program. This will be my forth breeding season with the progeny of one cock and two hens that were closely related but not the same. The cock is an 07 bird and I produced good to better from him in that year. Each year by line breeding him I am seeing improved qualities. This year as in other years I also have taken rounds from him with one of the original hens. This years birds show a marked improvement but I'm not sure if my management skills are improving or if the quality from this pair is improving as they age. Now to your question, the difference I'm seeing is not drastic but is pronounced enough to question and worth pursuing the question as to why.
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 5:53 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
498 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:05 PM
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Other enviromental issue could also be involved. My later hatches seem to take longer to get on the wing. Hence they come into the roll later.
I wonder how Tempature effects young birds?
Does the amount of day light effect growth rates? fly development.
Thom I also would think that your selective bredding program is paying off.
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RT Williams
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1516 posts
Nov 20, 2009
2:52 PM
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RT, I hope you are right about my breeding program.
I did not make my point very clear so I'm going to try again. If this gets boring, I apologize.
I have the progeny from this mating from 07, 08, and 09. In 07 they produced one very outstanding cock and others that were good but not great. In 08, they produced several cocks that were equal to the one really good in 07 and the hens improved greatly but were still not as good as the cocks. This year I have several really good cocks and one really good hen. She will make your heart smile! This is a much needed addition as my weak point has been in my hens. Improvement and to be clear I'm very hopeful. My dilemma lies in the severe losses I experienced due to the B.O.P. I don't mean to whine because I also understand I'm not alone in this frustration.
Now to the part I don't understand. As the breeders age will their young improve and then decline because they are aging? Why are nest mates that are in the same kit box, eating the same food and receiving the same supplements different? If they are flown together, trained together, then why is one outstanding and the other only good?
Val, insomnia is boring and after years, the questions get harder. :)
Thom
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wishiwon2
236 posts
Nov 20, 2009
3:02 PM
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I do not have the citation handy , but if I remember correctly it was posted by Tom Monson on another list, I will look for it.
I wouldnt read too much into the milk production though. I simply used it as an example of an envorinmental factor that may or may not have an end affect on how our rollers perform. That is independant of genetic potential.
There are several environmental influences that I believe do have an effect;
1) one of biggest is quality air time. Most of us have young ready to trap train and begin flying about mid March- mid April. Temps are moderate and relatively consistent, ideal if you will, for flying rollers. Daylight is long enough to fly when we choose rather than only when we are able. It is possible to get a young kit up morn and evening if we would like. Plus they are the only focus at the time. as the summer wears on temps rise, we get tired of trap training youngster and our pigeoin life gets full of other activities. Until by the end of the season we have multiple kits that need flown, weather becomes unstable and cooler into autumn and the days get shorter. I see it that the first round has much advantage as far as our attention and conditions to begin flying. Each successive round afterwards has porportionately less.
2) the kit environement. Earlier rounds are typically synchronized age wise more closely than later rounds. The physical development, strength and mental maturity range between the youngest and eldest is real close. It has been my observation that birds that flew with kitmates equal to themselves develope better than those of mixed ages and abilities. If a young bird is trained in a kit that flies at a good height, pattern and length of time it makes those traits habitual throughout its life. If the kit developes good active rolling it facilitates developement of all the rest of the kit members, whereas if the young bird in question is the only one in the kit developing in the roll behaviour, its progress may be hampered.
3) Later hatches have less time to develope roll behavior as well as physical and mental qualities prior to onset of moult and winter. Those young hatched late in the season, just finish growing feathers the first time and they're starting to molt. Molting is a big stress factor. If they happen to be developing rolling behaviors at the same time as trying to grow a new set of feathers it can change the way that development progresses. Whereas young from earlier hatches have had additional time to build muscle and mentally mature, even get through some stages of roll developemnt before having to molt in a new set of feathers.
Just a couple more examples of environemntal variances that can and will have an effect on the outcome of developing young rollers. There may be something to the milk hypothesis, but please dont read into it that it makes all the difference ... I do know though that when I have young whose parents dont feed it well during the first 10 days or so, as result of their own stress, whatever reasons, those young almost never grow normally, develope normal spin behavior and arent healthy, fit adults. It has been a waste of my time, attention and feed to keep them.
Monson believes it is very possible to raise youngsters with too much vigor. I tend too agree somewhat.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1517 posts
Nov 20, 2009
4:04 PM
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Jon, You are obviously very intelligent and educated and I truly appreciate your input. To be honest I am having a little difficulty understanding some of it but eventually it will sink through this quagmire I call a brain. Please understand I'm worker bee, if I want a Remington, I get a large block of wood, carve away all the bits that don't look like a horse or rider until it's a close as I can make it. So, considering, I'm a little tanashis, can you shed any light as to why birds of the same parentage and environmental conditions (within reason) don't have the same capabilities. For the sake of the question let's assume they are nest mates and both cocks with no difference in environmental stimulus and of equal air time. Why then the diversity in their individual performance? This has bothered me for sometime and I may never understand but I'm trying.
Thank you for your consideration
Thom
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3837 posts
Nov 20, 2009
4:07 PM
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Jon, your post 236 is a good read and I appreciate it.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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steve49
335 posts
Nov 20, 2009
4:33 PM
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i think i do remember reading somewhere that if you pair a very young cock with an older hen, the resulting offspring could be better than if you had paired him with a young hen the same age. and i would think it works in reverse too, with the hen being less than one year, and the cock an older bird. figured this would be helpful in this discussion
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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wishiwon2
238 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:49 PM
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Thom,
I cannot answer your question " Why then the diversity in their individual performance?" other than I believe there are multiple genes that control or influence rolling behaviour. Since heredity is a random passing of varied genes for the same trait, there is bound to be variety in the offspring.
The only way possible for it to be otherwise is if the parents were genetic clones of one another, even then, because there may be more than 1 gene responsible for rolling there could be possiblity of variation.
If rolling were controlled by a singular gene, we could select for it and identify its order of dominance, just like we have done for color. Test matings would prove out a statistical probability of inheriting and expressing the behaviour. Some work has been done to that end but it was found to be inconclusive and has not been repeated (which is a test for scientific process - repeatability).
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
500 posts
Nov 20, 2009
8:27 PM
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Thom
In answer to your question, Why the diversity?
First even though they are nest mates they are not Twins. They share some genetic makeup but are not clones of each other. Even Twins are a little different. I do not believe we even know how many Chromosomes are in a pigeon. But if they have 25 pairs, you get a lot of combinations. Every pair has 4 possibilities. Each offspring gets one chromosome from each parent; the parent has two different ones to give. So with 25 pairs you have 18,014,398,509,481,984 (I hope this is right, been a while since college genetics 4^25) different possibilities. Each possibility being expressed in the offspring a little bit different.
This could mean that even siblings could possibly not share a chromosome that is identical.
With that scenario we still have not touched on mutations.
The odds of two birds being the same are impossible or 1 and the number above. I have heard that pigeons may have 100 chromosomes or 50 pairs. That would really mess with the numbers.
A little variation can be a lot as far as how a bird reacts to different feeds, weather, how they control the roll, physical attributes, etc. This is why we breed our families tightly, in doing so we can remove some of those possibilities, because parents share like chromosomes.
I hope this helps a little.
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RT Williams
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1518 posts
Nov 21, 2009
4:42 AM
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Jon, RT That is clearer and I appreciate the detailed answers. I think Jon is right,"If it were easy, everybody would do it"
RT, I still intend to continue line breeding while using only those with the qualities I desire. It is working with no apparent adversity's.
Thank you gentlemen, I can't say I understand the nuances but I now have an appreciation for the complexities.
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 4:43 AM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
503 posts
Nov 21, 2009
7:12 PM
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Thom
If it is working do not fix it. LOL
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RT Williams
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Bill C
446 posts
Nov 21, 2009
10:39 PM
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Steve 49, In Pensoms book he said if you breed a young hen to an older cock that the mating would favor the older bird and vise versa with hens.
Thom, I think it is all a roll of the dice when it comes to breeding better birds. You can impact the breeding by healthy birds and good quality birds to produce you more of the same. The more you have bred from proven birds and good birds the more your established family will reproduce iteself. This is why so many of us sought out birds from a guy who flys his birds and has a proven stud of rollers. The dice rolls much more in your favor if you have the past dedication to performance already in them for many generations.
I think you have good questions and pondering on them is certainly helpful. I am sure that is how Bill P found out that an older bird with a younger bird will favor the older bird. I have noticed myself that a one year old pair does not produce as well as when that same pair is 3 years old. I do not know why? but it is true to me. Most every bird I now pull out to breed is two or three years flying before I will even pull it out to breed from the A team. There are too many numbers on those dice and we want all ones to pop up if possible Ones being champs and six being less than perfect. All those dice (squeakers) tell you what you need, have and what your percentages are going to be with a paticular pair. Good luck. Bill C
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1522 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:42 AM
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Hey Bill, I think RT is exactly right, and I have no intention of making any large changes in my breeding program. I choose to keep a very small loft for several reasons and an intimate knowledge of my birds tops the list. My percentages of good birds improves each year and in an effort to maximize, I try never to stop questioning. Even in failure, I learn. :)
Thanks Bill and luck to you!
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 6:43 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1523 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:46 AM
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Steve, I'm sure that works, but how do you get the cock to stop grinning? :)
Thom
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