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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Flying breeders
Flying breeders
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Velo99
2211 posts
Nov 19, 2009
12:46 PM
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I guess this is a step in the right direction. I have no real BOP problem. My birds are relatively healthy and I am at a point in my program where it is time to move forward in a big way.
I finally have enough "good birds" to start tightening the gene pool. I had a few 08`s in the breeder box this season. They produced pretty well so far and I`ll see more over the winter. I pulled the 08`s and one 07 out of the breeder box. I plan on flying them thru the winter and see how they get back into shape.
I let one 08 hen out the other day that had been in the box for 4-5 months. She went out and made a few rounds for 20 minutes or so. I noticed she was flying a figure eight, didnt try to fly away or act stupid. I figured thats a good thing. She went in with the kit when they came down after their fly. She was soaking in the freedom and watching the kit.I expect the same out of the other three I have returned to the kitbox.
Okay now that the foreward is over...Some of my best breeders are getting older. Seven,eight,nine years old. I am on limited time with the "best pairs". I am breeding from a couple of cockbirds that are ten. So I am preparing for the "next step".
Almost no one I talk to flys their breeders. Some of you for obvious reasons. Others because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
When I was talking to Heine he selects his breeders out of his kitbirds every year. He gets to see what they have now rather that what they had... I can see the logic in this. You might be beyond the potential of the breeders you started with and not even know it after breeding four or five seasons with them and not seeing them fly.
We want solid balanced birds to breed from because...its common sense animal husbandry. The watchword is breed better than themselves. Unless periodically tested,how do you know?
Over the course of the next few years I am going to try to fly the majority of the birds that go into the breeder box,fosters included. A rollerman I consider one of my peers told me once that his fosters are almost as good as his breeders and he looks at them as his second string. He does like I do and breeds a round off them every year jsut to see what they have.
Right now I have three boxes open and an auditioning two kits for 6 spots. I really think this might put me ahead of the game and help me to understand how age affects kitbirds and breeders. Is there going to be a health and fertility difference between birds that spend the winter in the kitbox and the ones now that are prisoners? Ultimately my goal is to have no need of a break up pen. Just pop em into a kitbox,get em back into shape and fly them.
I see more performance analysis stronger kits and healthier breeders. Could be a win win for me.
Thoughts anyone?
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1512 posts
Nov 19, 2009
1:19 PM
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Kenny, You will have a lot disagree with ever flying breeders. Even with my hawk problem there are only two birds that never fly and never will. The rest are breeder fliers. How else do you know for sure they will hold up over time. Memory is a tricky thing and I tend to romanticize just how great a bird was. It's a little harder to exaggerate when I see a bird in the air each year and as you said when they are flying with their young you can tell exactly how and were progress is being made.
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2009 1:20 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2148 posts
Nov 19, 2009
1:38 PM
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Kenny
That question is one we all have to address one way or the other. For one thing, we can look at the old wisdom: Don't fly what you can't afford to loose. If they aren't that good....Fly UM. But I can tell you, many men find out how good they were .....only after they are gone. If these birds are your best would you still tempt fate ?
Are you trying to "prove" the birds or Prove to yourself you made the right decision to stock them in the first place?
Do you think a bird locked up for several months might loose some of it's timing? And If it could, do you think it's chances of making a life ending error are increased by the inactivity? Do you think that laying eggs makes a hen more prone to spinning out her egg sac? Do you think that flying them increases or decreases the chance of hens becoming egg-bound? Why take such a chance with your best bird?
Then we have the BOP, is relatively BOP free 100% hawk free? Once again, I would ask, Why tempt fate?
The best choice for me, instead of risking my best or potentially my best breeders, is to fly the feathers off their young to prove my breeders, swap pairs around till I am sure I have the best pairing possible. Then stick with it.
If the young do not make me happy and are not as good as or better as my breeders, THEN return those breeders to the kit and you risk nothing.
Just My Opinion,
Cliff
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wishiwon2
235 posts
Nov 19, 2009
3:23 PM
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Kenny, my thoughts are very much in line with yours. I want to re-evaluate my selections.
To answer Cliffs question, "Are you trying to "prove" the birds or Prove to yourself you made the right decision to stock them in the first place?" It is both. It tells me about the character or make up of a bird if it can re-fly well over and over. If I have a bird that re-flys well I place a higher value on it and I expect the offspring out it to be able to do similarly. It is a further clue about its stability, roll control, strength of the roll impulse and its mental makeup.
It also allows me to make the decision to breed from a bird anew. My program and my ability to evaluate a bird has evolved over the years I have been flying rollers and I suspect it will continue to change some in the future.
I believe that the lack of flying our broodstock may ultimately result in a decrease in quality of or birds long term. Not that we wont be able to produce a bird of equal spinning ability, but its overall quality. Some of the unseen, difficult to describe characteristics, intangible qualities will deteriorate. During the period this breed was being formed (100 yrs) and up until relatively recent time, the stock birds were almost always flown annually. We in our limited perspective (30 yrs) think that because we havent seen a deterioration it wont happen, and maybe it wont. It goes along the same line as flying a bird for 2 yrs plus before stocking it, there was a sound basis for that. Circumstances have changed and lots of guys dont or wont fly out a bird that length of time. We are probably breeding from birds that shouldnt be bred from as result. I doubt it will be any dramatic change but there are so many very minor details that can make a long term (many generations) differences. The difference between being inferior and good is measured in large portions, but the differences between being good and great come in increasingly small increments. The same is true in reverse.
I also believe it is good for their health, physically and mentally. How do we reward those birds that are our best performers? We stick them in a breeding box for the rest of their lives ... some reward! Just like us, they need excercise and activity to be at their best health. I dont know if it relates but horses that come out of winter just a bit thin, do the best the following season as opposed to those that come out of winter fat. Any performing animals I have raised do best when at or just a touch above optimum performing condition.
Im with you Kenny. If you are in a place with your program you can do it, I say absolutely go for it. If you cannot afford to lose it then think twice. I have done and will continue to re-fly many of my breeding stock, there are those that I have become too fond of to lose and dont fly any more. I know of a couple very sucessful (master fliers) who refly brood stock, if its good for them, it ought to help me too.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Velo99
2212 posts
Nov 19, 2009
5:28 PM
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OK part two
I have three kitboxes full of birds. The "old bird kit" has 2-3 07`s 7-8 08`s and the rest 09`s. I have 9 pairs still in the breeder box that are too old to consider bringing back out. I have grown pretty atached to several of my pairs. It just wouldnt be the same without them.
As I was pondering the question several thoughts occurred to me.
A)I can fly the breeders from my breeder box.
B)Most years in the future I am only breeding 25 birds.
C)Breeders will only be out of commission for 6-8 weeks.
D)The longer I do this the better my birds should be and the better manager I will be as well.
Its a triangle with the best birds on top. These are the breeders. Second kit is the up and comers. Third is the yb`s. I will pick from the first based on the performance of the third. Birds in two are the survivors from the previous year.
Some years I may not have to breed at all.
If I pair up first of March done by end of May. Fly til next April. Pair up in March. Cull from two in May when the first squeaks hit the kitbox?
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
499 posts
Nov 19, 2009
6:21 PM
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Velo99
It sounds like you have a solid plan. I would go for it. I only wish I was in your position. I am breeding out of birds i have never or only briefly seen fly (just starting). I trust the guys I got these birds from. I would really, really, like to see them fly, however I do not dare lose my foundation.
When I get to the point that I can pull a bird from my "A" team to replace a breeder, I would fly my breeders.
I like your plan, go for it.
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 5:11 PM
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brudahpete
486 posts
Nov 22, 2009
4:59 PM
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I can fly my breeders frome June to around mid-October without too much trouble, any other time the falcons get to be an issue with me. I could take missing a youngster but a great breeder is hard to replace.
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http://www.freewebs.com/brudahpete/
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Spin City USA
265 posts
Nov 23, 2009
8:46 PM
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Kenny, Jon, I aggree with your thoughts. I only have four cocks that are stocked and everything in my kits has come down from these birds and they are all cousins and go back to one cock. I have a couple of hens that I have not flown for awhile. I may fly yhem this spring. I remember when I was a kid and before I got educated about rollers and learned about conventional wisdom I used to fly my birds everyday after school. It didnt matter if they were on eggs or feeding babies everybody flew. The hens ready to lay did not want to fly and wouldnt fly or came right in. It was really cool and I had no problems. we didnt have bop problems in those days. The idea that these birds cant get back into shape and turn it on does not hold water for me. Some times we can get loft blind and stick with what is tried and true and dont evolve because we dont try and move forward with our program and give other birds a chanch to prove themselves as breeders. How many people really have those rare stock birds that should never flown again. And if you have some how many,? 4-6 if that. With as many STOCK birds as some people say they have the competitions should be better than I see and hear about. jmo
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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