nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3835 posts
Nov 20, 2009
9:15 AM
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The first bird that lands or crashes is nothing more than an out bird by the rules. Does it mean that if it returns to the kit it is just that; an out bird returning to the kit?
Now don't give me shit about what you feel is implied or how you think it ought to be by your standards. Tell me what the rules are saying.
I understand that if a second bird lands while the first bird is still landed the fly stops. I also understand that if one bird is still landed or crashed and a second bird does the same it has 10 seconds to right itself. So we don't have to go there and if you do I will hunt you down(LOL).
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2009 9:16 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
598 posts
Nov 20, 2009
10:02 AM
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That is a DUMB Rule,The way it should be before all the don,t want anybody to feel bad popped up in judging. One bird land it has ten seconds to right itself after that you are DQ,Plan and simple.JDA
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Sound Rollers
116 posts
Nov 20, 2009
10:17 AM
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Nick, where does it say it's out? if it fly's for 15 minutes it has fulfilled the rules. Lets say that bird fly's for 18 minutes then lands it has fulfilled the rule of 15 minutes and should not affect the score. If that same bird lands inside the first five minutes and is back up and flying within 2 minutes and fly's 15+ minutes it has fulfilled the rule. all birds flew for the required minimum 15 minutes, of course 2 birds down DQ's them all.
"Fly time. The kit is “in judgement” for 20 minutes after time-in or until the second bird lands, whichever occurs first. However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in unless driven down by a bird of prey or extreme weather. A bird down that spontaneously crashes (after one bird has landed) shall be given up to 10 seconds to resurrect and resume flight or else it shall be considered the second bird down"
Bird-out. "Except for a 15 bird kit, scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit. Scoring is suspended but timing continues if 2 or more birds are out. A bird is not considered “out” if it is returning directly from a roll or it has been separated by extreme weather or chased off by a bird of prey - even if the pigeon lands or is captured"
John
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maxspin
370 posts
Nov 20, 2009
1:29 PM
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Nick,
NO
If the bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes it is down. It is not an out bird. It can not return to the kit. It has FAILED to fly for 15 minutes.
Keith
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3836 posts
Nov 20, 2009
4:04 PM
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If one bird lands or crashes and another bird flies out of the kit the scoring stops because it is a second bird out. So, the bird that lands or crashes is an out bird.........right?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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JMUrbon
770 posts
Nov 20, 2009
6:29 PM
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Nick, Whats your reasoning that you keep asking these questions that arent going anywere. If you feel that the rules state what you are saying than I strongly disagree with you. Like I said to Paul in your first go round with this question. we will just have to agree to disagree. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3840 posts
Nov 20, 2009
6:49 PM
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Joe, I am just trying to get people to think or even re-think what they have traditionally thought and to get a better understanding of the rules.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3841 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:05 PM
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I would say that it would be any weather condition that severaly and negitively affects the performce of the birds. It could be fog; rain above a drizzle; and of course wind with speeds of more than say 15 mph. This is where the judge comes in and assesses if the condition(s) warrents invoking this part of the rules and the judge's evaluation is final.
Each judge could be different in that evaluation, somewhat and could very well disagree with me on the "drizzle" and 15 mph wind.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2009 7:07 PM
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fhtfire
2223 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:20 PM
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Nick,
I see where you are going with this and I agree...NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THE WORD DOOOOWWWWWNNNN talking about the fist bird..so I have a hard time trying to figure out where everyone keeps saying first bird down...the rules only talk about the first bird in the "outbird" section..and that is what I was trying to say earlier about the titles for each rule....some keep trying to pull outbird and down bird from the "FLYTIME" section that only talks fly time....
The 15minutes is only used to keep your score that is the Minimum amount of time the team can fly for your score to count....the 15 minutes is only if you DQ before 15 minutes you get no score...if you DQ 15:00.01...you get to keep your score....and not get a DQ.....it says NOTHING about a bird landing during the 15 and being down...ANYWHERE..nor does it talk about a bird returning and scoring..
The fact is although I agree with Joe, Scott etc on how the rules SHOULD be...but...the rules are not written that way.....and most dont look at the title of the section of the rules they are reading..you cant pull outbird info from Flytime....Flytime is ONLY discussing fly times and what they mean....15 minutes...20 minutes...Time In...Time Out....DQ and not making the 15...that is it...anyway...Nick...I see what you are doing and I agree....
You cant pull words that are not there...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2224 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:29 PM
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At least I know the EC will be fun to debate this coming year...I am interested to see the take on the EC members...it should not be that bad..LOL...all we need to do is clean up the lingo...and clarify and define...some things....that is it..
IF the rules are longer..so what...rules are supposed to be understandable.....and nobody should complain about clarifying the rules...if you do..you just like to debate and that is it....because if you dont...then you care about the rules and think they should be as close to perfect as you can get...
So OBVIOUSLY the rules are not very clear or we would not have so many debates on what is extreme weather...(define)....what is a hawk attack (define)...after an attack...if the birds dont regroup are they still out..even if the BOP has left...(define)....the minimum to score...5 bird ROLL a min of 10'..Define...good quality...slow...fast...or not tumbling...define tumbling...define roll....IF the birds roll 10' but are not to fast...and axle rollers..do you count the break..some say no..some say yes....some think like I..that the Quality X is there to judge quality and all the bird has to do is ROLL 10'...facing forward...rules dont say that..just roll 10'..some think it has to be a near perfect roll...some think just a roll...ass over tea kettle...fist bird lands...is it down and out...or just out.....so...these are just arguments that I have come across....and I know there are more....oh....What about if a kit breaks 8 birds.....the roll..pop out and start heading back..they are about 100yards behind the kit....the kit breaks again...some wont count the second break..because they have not regrouped...some do..and follow the rules..because they birds are NOT out if returning from a roll..
so....all we need to do..is go section by section...define some things...or give examples....and give examples of what is ok and not ok...shit even photos help....anyway....this will be taken care of in the new future..and we will have to find something else to debate about...
I got one...How do you make a white bare ice pigeon..LOL...Kidding.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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scrimpscrampi
73 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:41 PM
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Sorry, i said that extreme weather could be different in other areas of the nation. I must remember that we are international...so...weather extremes may be defined differently depending on your position on the globe. :-)
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scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
501 posts
Nov 20, 2009
8:41 PM
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LOL, Here we go again!!
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RT Williams
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
502 posts
Nov 20, 2009
8:43 PM
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"kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in"
This phrase is the catch I think. I think it says that if two birds fail to fly for all of the first 15 minutes, the kit DQ's. Excluding the exceptions and 10 second rule for a rolldown.
However bird one is an out bird and can return and be scored.
However if a second bird, even if bird one returns to the kit and is flying in the kit, lands prior to 15 minutes then the kit DQ's.
JMO
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RT Williams
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Sound Rollers
117 posts
Nov 21, 2009
12:17 AM
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Why isn't this kept simple, score what ever is kitting for twenty minutes. Is there an advantage to having 18 of twenty birds flying or is it a disadvantage? If it is a disadvantage wouldn't that be penalty enough or am I missing something here?
John
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3844 posts
Nov 21, 2009
5:01 AM
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Paul, you pretty well got what I am looking at. It appears we have fliers and judges who are adding language to the rules that are not there. The standard for this competition has to be the rules and not opinions of the fliers and especially the judge. The judge has to be the keeper of the rules and not the keeper of his opinion.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Velo99
2215 posts
Nov 21, 2009
6:50 AM
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Nick,
Thats where you`re wrong. The judge is there just to judge the kit. The RD runs the fly and should know the rules and ensure the fly is run accordingly.
The "judges interpretation" only deals with what is a scorabable roll not interpreting the rules to fit his standard. Break at once,roll not tumble and as accurate a count he can get on the breaks. One outbird scoring continues. Two out,scoring suuspended, two down fly is over. Pretty simple as it is designed to be.
The RD sets up the fly,makes all of the phone calls and collects the fees. He ensures the judge is taken care of and makes all of the stops. He makes sure everyone is eligible to fly in the region. He is THE representative of the organization he is ELECTED to represent. The regional judge is selected by the RD. The finals judge, in some cases, is selected by the RDs of the organization he is to judge.
Personally,I am not going to do all of the work just to turn it all over to the judge at fly time.
The RD should ensure that all of the rules are followed,timekeepers,scribes,and scorepads are accurate.
I dont know if it has ever happened but the RD can pull the plug and file a protest at any time during the fly too.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 7:05 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
562 posts
Nov 21, 2009
8:23 AM
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Nick,
Are you having fun stirring the old chamberpot??
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3846 posts
Nov 21, 2009
10:38 AM
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Joe B., I am having fun and it makes me think. Kenny Hartman just stated some stuff that is truly worthwhile that I would have never heard if I hadn't stirred it(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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