nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3838 posts
Nov 20, 2009
6:44 PM
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The ability to perform with depth, frequency, style, and as a kit are all important elements. But unless the principle foundation of spinning at high velocity is in place, everything else is meaningless. The ability is what constitutes a Birmingham Roller.
Performance that is less, is easier accomplished. The ability to perform instantaneous breaks isn't the identification of a true Birmingham Roller kit, unless those breaks are made by birds individually spinning with great velocity. I echo the thought, that a waterfall turn done with high velocity spinning, merits credit over an instantaneous break who's birds are marginal or less.
By Joe Houghton
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2009 10:11 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3839 posts
Nov 20, 2009
6:46 PM
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Does this make you more enthusiastic for the 11 Bird Comp.?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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scrimpscrampi
70 posts
Nov 20, 2009
6:59 PM
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The 11 bird does focus the attention on the historical basis for the entire reason the BR was created. To spin, rotate, head over heels, in rapid velocity for considerable depth. Do I enjoy simultaneous breaks? Hell yeah! They are amazing!
Are we breeding for two differnet types of performance from one breed?
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scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
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scrimpscrampi
71 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:00 PM
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Also, do I enjoy a deep roller that spins their tail feathers off? Hell Yeah!! that is what I breed for!
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scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
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scrimpscrampi
72 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:02 PM
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Nick, thank you for making me THINK! When I do, I reconsider all the reasons I love my birds! and, you encourage me to look for ways to improve.
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scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
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wishiwon2
237 posts
Nov 20, 2009
7:30 PM
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Nick, not sure if you're just asking Joe or all of us. since it appears to be open, Ill respond.
No, it doesnt make me more enthusiastic for 11 bird competition. It does however motivate me more to build a really high power superior quality 20 bird team. I think the 11-bird competition is fine, I would compete in it at an equal level if I didnt have to give up opportunity to fly 20 bird kit to do so.
I believe that concert performance ought to be included as one of the characteristics that define what a Birmingham is and does. At my loft, it IS part of the standard. It doesnt trump any other trait however. I include it in my description of the ideal. A bird that spins with great velocity, falls a considerable distance, does it over and over throughout the fly time together with its kit mates. Kitting and team work go hand in hand with what makes an ideal spinner.
I think too often we look at a single feature, such as velocity, as what makes a bird a great performer. i have claimed it before and maintain it still, the standard has evolved to include how the individual works with its mates.
It is a trait that with its abscence, the performance is incomplete. For instance suppose a bird is a extreme high velocity spinner but only rolls once during a fly. Compared to a bird that is very good quality but works steadily once per minute. The first would be a bore to watch for 20-30 mins compared to the second. That doesnt mean that work rate is a superior trait to extreme velocity, but instead, is a compliment to it and makes the individual of greater value. The same applies to a great spinner that works in concert with the rest of its team vs one who is a solo worker.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
600 posts
Nov 20, 2009
8:23 PM
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There is nothing nicer that a kit of 20 tight flying birds with the lead bird starting and the kit following with 30 to 40ft spins and go back up to do it all again.Nothing like it.Waterfall is the only way if they are the proper birds.The thing is most of the people in the hobby these days have never seen what rollers really can do. JDA
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3842 posts
Nov 20, 2009
9:44 PM
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I too, prefer the simontanious break of a 20 Bird kit. I am not sure though, that was as popular with roller fliers in the past as it is now days. I think it is something that really began to grow in the 1950's where before there was a great interest in the individual spinner. But, I do love that simontanious concert of a 20 bird team.
There is some debate by some that we are getting away from some original values of the Birmingham Roller.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
239 posts
Nov 20, 2009
10:31 PM
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Joe said, "Waterfall is the only way if they are the proper birds."
Why do you think that Joe? Why is a waterfall break superior to a simultaneous break?
"most of the people in the hobby these days have never seen what rollers really can do."
I think you underestimate the people in this hobby...
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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birdman
741 posts
Nov 20, 2009
11:00 PM
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Jon, you need to finish the sentence. He says the waterfall kit with high velocity is preferable to watch over an instantaneous break with marginal quality birds or less.
And I agree with Joe. If it's instantaneous and if the quality is poor I would rather watch the high quality waterfall. I'm speaking as a backyard flyer.
Russ
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2009 11:08 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
601 posts
Nov 20, 2009
11:24 PM
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Jon... You say you are flying Jim Gilespe blood, Well he was one that flew the type of birds that I,am talking about.JDA
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3845 posts
Nov 21, 2009
5:09 AM
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You gotter, Russ. I don't know if Joe is on this site, but his statement was taken off another list during a conversation we all had about the simontanious breaking thing. It was over a rule that was removed from a competition that once allowed a half second on the breaks before it was considered a waterfall.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Mongrel Lofts
611 posts
Nov 21, 2009
5:37 AM
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Nick/Jon,
So many of the old school guys have never seen a truly good team that can bust fast and deep. They think birds starting in steps and going one after another is as good as it gets. Look, in the past, guys like Joe houghton were flying 60 bird kits in international competitions. And won with 60 birds over guys flying 25. Of course there was waterfall and confusion. Can you imagine judging 60 birds in turns? it what many of the old school cut their teeth on. You can't change their mind. They still think the type writer is better than the computer! LOL today, true BR breeders want it all! Fast,deep, frequent, good style and busting together frequently! The bar has been raised! Anyone who flys this breed knows it's harder to get those big bust, deep and fast.
Waterfall is what my kit does when they are off or out of shape. Just my take on things. KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 5:44 AM
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kcfirl
623 posts
Nov 21, 2009
10:40 AM
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Hi Joe,
I completely agree.
I would rather have a team of 1.6+, 1.6+ going in waterfall than a team of 1.3's doing lots of instantaneous breaks.
That is the primary reason i WAS AGAINST CHAGING THE RULE TO INSTANTANEOUS.
Best Regards,
Ken
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Velo99
2216 posts
Nov 21, 2009
11:08 AM
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Gee this is an interesting one too.
Waterfalls are fun sometimes but they dont score points.
A few years ago I saw from my birds the definition of the waterfall you guys are interested in.
The very first time I had one of my buddies over to watch my birds a few years ago they went up over the field behind my house and went to work breaking in twos and threes. The interesting thing is the continous waterfall they did for about 15 minutes.
There were almost always 5-6 birds rolling. The group on the bottom were coming out about the time the group on the top started. It was an almost continous chain of rolls. The main body of the kit was up at 150 or so and they were lining up to get a spot and them popping off and rolling 20-30 feet,and right back up to the kit. The hole was everywhere to be seen. I was pretty impressed and my friend was too. For an uninitiated person to see the actual roll it was perfect.
In a comp setting he wouldve been lost. With bunches of birds breaking it would have been almost impossible for him to "see" the roll like we do. Instead he stood there watching with a smile on his face.
It was impressive but unfortunately very few of the breaks would have actually been scorable.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 11:11 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
602 posts
Nov 21, 2009
11:13 AM
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Ken..Thank you and hope all is well with you and yours.A mass of falling feathers will never be my cup of tea.JDA
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Mongrel Lofts
612 posts
Nov 21, 2009
12:52 PM
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Ken/Joe,
Why can't a kit bust or break in unison with 1.6 x 1.6 or better? I don't understand why you think waterfall and qualitie roll go hand in hand? Waterfall breaks are fine for the back yard or the 11 bird. Just have no worth in a kit competition. Just my opinion. KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 1:01 PM
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birdman
742 posts
Nov 21, 2009
4:44 PM
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Ken, nobody is saying quality kits shouldn't break in unison because THEY SHOULD. But if they are breaking in unison and the quality is POOR, where's the thrill in that? Doesn't do much for me.
I would much rather spend my time watching QUALITY rolls, even if the birds are waterfalling at the time, but that doesn't mean I'm placing a higher value on kits that waterfall because I'm not. I'm placing the higher value on the quality of spin.
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JMUrbon
771 posts
Nov 21, 2009
5:14 PM
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I personally want that kit to lok like it ran into a wall. I dont want the waterfall at all. I will cull out a kit that just waterfalls as well as a bunch of 1.3 Q rollers. I want them to do it together and do it rite. Nothing less. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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birdman
744 posts
Nov 21, 2009
8:02 PM
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Hey Joe, how's it going? Are you still working down in my area? If so, give me a holler and come on over for a good bbq steak meal.
Russ
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Bill C
445 posts
Nov 21, 2009
10:03 PM
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Hi Nick, There is such a thing as indivedual performance and that is for your water fall velocity roller. You can fly it with two or three other birds nd focus on the one.
While velocity and quality rollers look better than a sloppy full turn water fall or not, the sloppy full turn should not get a higher score or not be judged at all if it was sloppy. So why not strive for it all as Pensom did. He also wanted concert performance in his letters. Anyway I would rather have the velocity birds that waterfall to breed from than less than quality but would beging to breed from those that kit and break together if that was my only option. Why not have it ALL in these birds, you know what I mean!!! Bill
You think we have problems with judging now just give the lose judges a green light on waterfall breaks and what a mess we would have.
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2009 10:06 PM
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JMUrbon
772 posts
Nov 21, 2009
11:05 PM
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Hey Russ. No I am back up around Sacramento area. I will definately look you up when I am back in your neighborhood again. I enjoyed spending time with you as well as Dale. I will hopefully have a pretty good group to work with next year. I have some nice youg irds from last year that I flew out from Will Smith and some nice birds from my stuff. I still have 2 full kit boxes along with what I will breed next year. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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macsrollers
223 posts
Nov 21, 2009
11:48 PM
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I enjoy watching a outstanding spinner regardless to whether it is part of a simultaneous break or a waterfall break. Early on in my competing days I couldn't understand why the birds were required to roll at exactly the same time to be scored as an outstanding spinner is such regardless to whether it rolls at the same time as 5 plus birds or not. But as my kits got better and I learned how to manage them, I started to see more simultaneous breaks and when the birds work like this as a team the outstanding ones really seem to hit it more consistently on such breaks. This is even truer when the birds don't hesitate or "set up" just before breaking. When they are flying and then all of the sudden "bam!" the quality of spin overall shows thru. As far as a competiton standard for a team performance then the simultaneous rule sets the bar where it should be set. For everyday flying and just to sit under your birds and watch for individual spin then waterfall breaks can be enjoyable. The 11 bird format was originated for individual performance but I think it has swung more to being judged similar to the 20 bird format. Very tough for a judge to do the 11 bird as that format isn't flown as often. So whatever you enjoy then enjoy! But for competition of a team of Birmingham Rollers I strongly believe that a simultaneous break stimulates better quality spins from your birds then waterfall does so that is the way they should be judged as we are looking for the best TEAM of performing birds in this format. Enjoy your next fly! Don M. Mac's Rollers LVRC
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3757
1326 posts
Nov 22, 2009
4:09 AM
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I personally do not believe that the most exceptional birds of the highest quality and style that are in a kit that breaks 3 times per minute for twenty minutes will reveal themselves better breaking 60 times. I have often debated this subject in the past but I leave it alone now because most are not interested in logic and critical analysis and a conversation of the subject as this.
Nick, I have the highest regards for Joe. He is one of the founders of the Northwestern fly which the world cup modeled after.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 4:16 AM
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gotspin7
2599 posts
Nov 22, 2009
5:40 AM
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List, this have been brought up many times and I do believe you can breed a bird that spins true and breaks with the kit. I have bred and flew a few, it is not impossible...lol
Laron, I am your huckleberry...lol
I personally do not believe that the most exceptional birds of the highest quality and style that are in a kit that breaks 3 times per minute for twenty minutes will reveal themselves better breaking 60 times. I have often debated this subject in the past but I leave it alone now because most are not interested in logic and critical analysis and a conversation of the subject as this.
Laron, have you ever thought about that the birds were maybe peeked just for that one fly? My birds don't do what you stated they maybe roll once a minute. But when I get them ready for a fly and I peek them right they will break twice a minute..
Now I have a couple of questions for you...
Have you ever prepped birds for a fly? Do you really believe guys breed birds to roll 3 times a minute?My question to you is, what is the logic behind someone believing that you can only have one or the other?
Now my last question...
Now since you breed for the true birmingham roller with exceptional speed and depth, let me know when you have ONE that you are flying and can show case, I will be more than glad to make the trip to your place and be there a few days to make sure it is just not one fly. I just want to SEE what you are talking about, I also understand that it is BOP season right now so I can wait a few months to visit. Let me know, please e-mail me when you have sometime. Also along with that, believe me when I say I just want to see what you are talking about and nothing else is behind it. Here is my e-mail address... gotspin7@yahoo.com
KGB,
Why can't a kit bust or break in unison with 1.6 x 1.6 or better?
I have seen a few kits that will for ever stand out in my mind, with what you just talked about. To answer your question, yes they can.
I don't understand why you think waterfall and quality roll go hand in hand?
I am not sure either...
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
1327 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:03 AM
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Sal - You stated, "My birds don't do what you stated they maybe roll once a minute." That is more logical. The subject matter I was speaking of was not about peaking for a particular fly (Which is an outlyer) when we are speaking about averages and that is what I am speaking of not one fly. Averages of what a breeder sees daily should be the most important to the breeder in my opinion. Also, I never stated you can only have one or the other nor was that implied but that the revelation of an exceptional spinner is not revealed simply (and the emphasis is on the word simply) because of a simultaneous break and if a bird spins with the highest velocity possible I doubt that after sixty spins he or she will be performing with the highest velocity imaginable. If you have seen that I am astonished.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 6:58 AM
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Scott
2620 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:10 AM
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The highest hardest rolling quality is always within the kits that are banging instaneous breaks as they are far more likely to fully commit to the roll,not so with birds waterfalling. The top three in the nationial fly also showed such, nothing waterfalling came even close quality wise to the guys on top right now due to what makes them hammer as a real team also pulls the absolute potential out as far as quality.
Few here can match the absolute quality in numbers or even individuals of these guys where this breed is concerned, when they are their best they just simply aren't in waterfall mode, the exact same holds true with the 11 bird also,the higest quality were breaking clean and solid, not individualy.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 6:13 AM
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Scott
2621 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:22 AM
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I agree, that is called activity , not what I'm talking about
I doubt that after sixty spins he or she will be performing with the highest velocity imaginable.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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3757
1328 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:44 AM
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Scott - Thanks. That is it in a nutshell and is exactly what I was trying to say and as you would say nothing more nothing less :)
Scott- I have stolen your phrase. I love that saying now as many try to add "more" to a simple concise statement.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 7:01 AM
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kcfirl
624 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:53 AM
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Hi guys,
a 2.0 x 2.0 instantaneous break of 20 is what we are after - of course - I'm sure we can agree on that.
It's just that I feel on the way to the impossible goal we must make choices along the way.
I'll take a 2.0 x 2.0 bird that is not always instantaneous with the others every day over a lesser bird that is instantaneous.
That is all.
Best Regards,
Ken
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Velo99
2219 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:19 AM
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Everyday standards?
What should we be looking for in our everydays fly?
Comp prep and flys are overdiscussed but everyday flying is hardly touched. It takes a lot of work to have kit to prep. Some of us do a lot of things to prep our birds for a fly some dont. I am one of the donts.
I have heard a lot of guys who starve their birds to "get the roll out" for a comp. I was informed recently by another flyer the best way is to leave em in and for three or four days and feed em up.
What should we reasonably expect from our kits?
What do you look for "in practice" Monday thru Friday?
I look for outbirding and non rolling.
I look for who is in front,who is leading the kit in a circle and who is disrupting the kit with unruly behavior.
(Most times this is in the YB and squeaker kit(s).)
I look for breaks clean and sweet.
I look for roll style and depth.
I get the occasional "wheres the judge"fly.
I get the occasional "glad the judge aint here"too.
Average day I get 7-8 nice breaks. I almost always see something decent. This is how we learn how our birds react to different weather and times of day.
One guy posted a copy of his birds fly patterns.
I tried it and was surprised at the patterns my birds were flying. I need to do it in different weather situations than the almost perfect day I tried it on.
I do very few things to prep a kit for a fly.
Worm,Permectin bath,acv/garlic,better feed and a little more fly time to get the lead out. Shut em down for three days prior to and I am ready. Most of the things I do are more for the health of the bird rather than an actual prep. The better they feel the better they roll.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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harrison
1289 posts
Nov 22, 2009
4:40 PM
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when you say the word waterfall do you mean birds going one at a time after eachother.
If so what would be the point in having a kit of birds that perform like that?
As I understand its birds rolling together that gets you the points.
So if one goes then one again and so on its not scorable?
harrison
CRAVEN PARK ROLLER LOFT HULL UK
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ezeedad
1077 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:30 PM
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Nick,
I am glad to see this post. That is just about exactly how I feel about simultaneous performance. I have always preferred the waterfall because it gives you a better chance to evaluate individual birds.
Also simultaneous breaks what tumblers were judged on originally.. I believe. Then the rules were sort of modified for rollers. As far as I'm concerned Birmingham rollers should be judged on their speed, style, depth and frequency ONLY.
Paul G
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birdman
746 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:33 PM
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OK Joe, sounds good.
Next time you're down here I'll make sure you get some good home cooked food and entertainment.
Russ
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XtraDeepRoller
63 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:54 PM
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Paul G,
If that is all that you believe the Birmingham Roller should be judged on, then the 11 bird fly is for you, and all that believe the same. That brings up another good question, why don't more support the 11 bird fly, if they believe in individual performance?
X
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ezeedad
1078 posts
Nov 22, 2009
9:48 PM
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X,
I can't speak for others, but I may start to participate in that fly. In my club we only judge speed, style and depth. We only score true spinners. We count the number of scorable rolls and then we apply multipliers for speed, depth and style.
Paul G
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pigeon pete
431 posts
Nov 23, 2009
7:49 AM
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Hi,
I just read the first couple of posts as I don't have too much time for reading these days, but my take is this.
Birds that break in ones and twos, and roll sloppy are not my idea of a good kit.
I 'want' birds that roll to a high standard and will break as one. Not one or the other but both.
To answer one point about why we should only be juding instant breaks, well that is simple.
It is a team competition, and the ultimate team performance, the one that is the hardest to obtain is the instant full turn with good rolling. The nearer we get to that, the higher the score.
The higher the quality of the individuals in that break, again the higher the score.
If I want to fly a flock of frequent rollers that cannot resist the roll long enough for a team to form then that is my choice, but I cannot expect them to be judged as a 'team'. If I never flew competition then I might fing waterfalling teams to be quite entertaining.
Pete
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Bill C
448 posts
Nov 23, 2009
10:55 PM
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I have noticed something important in this post, that is everyone is promoting quality and velocity! However, we are not always comparing apples with apples. To compare a quality water fall break with a break lacking in quality is apples to oranges.
But if we compare a quality velocity roller in a water fall break with a quality velocity roller in a concert performance break is a better comparison. Now which bird would you want to breed from and have more of?
I too am guilty of making such comparisons to make me feel better about my birds, but striving for better birds is what most all of us are really focused on anyway and that has shown forth in this post. Bill C
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gotspin7
2602 posts
Nov 24, 2009
4:20 AM
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But if we compare a quality velocity roller in a water fall break with a quality velocity roller in a concert performance break is a better comparison. Now which bird would you want to breed from and have more of?
Bill, quality with concert performance of course....lol
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
1329 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:29 AM
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Bill - Excellent observation!!!
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pigeon pete
434 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:57 AM
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Bill.
To those of us who have been taught to breed for quality and team performance the term " quality waterfall break" is an oxymoron, i.e a term that contradicts itself.
It is a term that would sound funny to English flyers, but if you said they were quality rollers but they were waterfalling, they would understand you better.
If the waterfall break has been held up as a quailty break in your roller culture, then it is not an oxymoron to you. We breed pigeons to perform to a standard we have in our heads. It may be very deep spinning individuals, very frequent tumblers, instant breaks, fast homing, fast diving etc etc But waterfalls is something we have never conciously bred for in Britain as far as I am aware.
When Heine visited me, he seemed bemused by the way many US kits flew. He said they had little control and were just rolling all the time, and sometimes more than 5 would roll together and score, more by coincidence was his words. I have seen some great displays of quality rolling by waterfalling kits, but I wouldn't call them quality breaks.
Many times in the eighties I heard fanciers say something like "He has some good birds, it's such a pity they were waterfalling" usually followed by "it's all down to bad management of course".
These days I don;t see so many of the heavy waterfalls like I used to, partly I think because there is more contact between fanciers on forums like this one, and we can comunicate to each other about what is required to get a team in shape for competition.
Pete.
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wishiwon2
244 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:35 PM
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Gomez said, "I have always preferred the waterfall because it gives you a better chance to evaluate individual birds."
My experience is exactly the opposite Paul. In a waterfall, I find myself watching 'an individual' and missing the other 4, 5, 12, 15 whatever. Whereas in a solid simultaneous break it is more easy to observe individual birds because they are right there, together, rolling side-by-side.
In most of the good quality kits Ive seen, there are more than 1 or 2 exceptional individuals. Often there are 5-10 or more. I want to be able to enjoy them all. If you dont think so, you need to hit the road and see some more kits. Not everyone flies a quality kit, theres lots of garbage in between, but I garuantee they are there and they really arent that hard to find. I see one in almost every regional competition Ive been on.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Scott
2623 posts
Nov 24, 2009
11:47 PM
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Exactly Jon
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2625 posts
Nov 25, 2009
9:39 AM
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Pete, I know exactly what you are talking about. Most of these are youngbirds that just have too much roll, many of us here call it "popcorn" kits because that it what they look like,non stop activity.
When they go together it is more like accident than anything,and I wouldn't even call it waterfalling. The problem here is when judges score that stuff, but I can assure you that there are more than a few here that know the difference and that there are also some fine teams of birds here also when it all comes together for them on the right day. I just wrapped up nearly two monthes here judging the natiponial fly, The teams on top hammered hard solid breaks of birds rolling correctly as solid Birmingham Rollers are supposed to do,trust me when I tell you that not everyone is lost here.
(When Heine visited me, he seemed bemused by the way many US kits flew. He said they had little control and were just rolling all the time, and sometimes more than 5 would roll together and score, more by coincidence was his words. I have seen some great displays of quality rolling by waterfalling kits, but I wouldn't call them quality breaks.
Many times in the eighties I heard fanciers say something like "He has some good birds, it's such a pity they were waterfalling" usually followed by "it's all down to bad management of course".)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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pigeon pete
438 posts
Nov 25, 2009
12:29 PM
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Hey Scott,
Glad to hear you saw some good kits, a top quality kit is worth travelling to see. I wasn't suggesting all your kits suck.lol Or for that matter that all ours are good, hell no far from it.
Pete.
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