George R.
186 posts
Nov 22, 2009
5:38 PM
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Cliff
Just let it Rest you got your way and you stopped a new region from forming . By doing that you stopped 12 men from flying .
By me supporting this NEW region you said that I was trying to destroy your region , but that is not true Cliff of those 12 men only 1 was on your Regional Fly report from last year.
I was only trying to increase participation and make sure that the BEST kit in the World is Found and made Champion .
so I dont know how you figured that I was trying to destroy your region , these men said they will not fly with you ( and it aint because they cant beat you)
So I dont know why you dont let this rest .
I talked to a few of these Guys and although they are dissapointed that they didnt get a region they have decided to move on.
you should talk to Rick S. if you still have some concerns about this matter, because as far as I know it's a done deal .
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JMUrbon
773 posts
Nov 22, 2009
6:32 PM
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The one thing I would like to know Cliff is if you want Tony and the RPDC moderators to block any posts regarding this matter then why would you continue to push your agenda after the first paragraph. Just curious is all Cliff. I have no baring either way so it really makes no difference to me. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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XtraDeepRoller
64 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:09 PM
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Cliff,
If rigid borders are going to be enforced, then it is imperative that some kind of grievance board or committee be available, so that a wronged individual flyer, or flyers, could find some relief. What happens now is that flyers who can't get any relief from legitimate problems in their region, either choose not to fly, try to fly in another region, and/or inadvertantly cause upheaval in their current region.
Cliff, when you visited me years ago, you brought up your idea of some type of forum to handle grievances and I thought it was a good idea, but I wasn't sure if it was really needed, but the things that I have seen happen all across the country since then, has changed my mind, and I now see the importance of having a 3rd party help settle these in-region problems.
X
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3852 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:20 PM
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Lordy, Lordy!!
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3853 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:26 PM
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Cliff, Explain the two tierd system.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2154 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:35 PM
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Well, George, I didn't figure that you would be able to stick to the issues and not take it personal....but try to do do your best. Let the readers know how YOU feel about it, and why you voted to support it, why don't you? This is not about anyone getting their way, anyone winning or loosing. This issue is coming before the World Cup and I am curious how the rest of the flyers feel about it.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2155 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:38 PM
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Joe,
I did not request that the modderators block any posts regarding this matter, only the ones that attempt to make this personal. I want to know how the flyers feel about the issues. Remember, in the World Cup, the flyers do not get a vote in these matters. The EC makes all the decisions. The flyers' only vote is through their RD, (if he represents the opinion of the flyers he is supposed to represent). How do you feel about the issue, Joe? It doesn't matter to you?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 8:00 PM
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JMUrbon
774 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:43 PM
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Well Cliff what I meant by it doesnt matter to me is that from the regions that you mentioned it doesnt effect me however after reading the remainder of your post I see that it very well could effect me if this change were to take place. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2156 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:44 PM
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X,
Your first paragraph goes to the heart of this matter. I think the World Cup needs a Grievance Comittee and the NBRC needs one.The problem is getting guys to serve on it. A lot of this sport is a popularity contest....guys hold office because they want to be liked and appreciated by their friends in the sport. It is difficult to be in the position of sitting in judgement of others, which would be required by serving on the Grievance Committee. I think it would be a good role for the Hall of Fame members.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 7:50 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2157 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:49 PM
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Nick,
X has some great ideas on a two-tier system that I have heard him discuss in the past. But basically, it consists of grouping regions together, perhaps as countries with one finalist, or in the case of the large regions like the US and South Africa, possibly three or four finalists based on the number flyers in certain geographical areas, and flying off the regions as a semi-finals to determine the finalist. Then the fewer number of finalists are judged in the finals. But this is anouther topic, Nick.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2158 posts
Nov 22, 2009
7:53 PM
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Joe,
Correct...I am speaking about the issue in general, not any specific regions....they are just examples of the first few...if this new philosophy is adopted, it has the potential to impact almost EVERY region,evntually.
Cliff
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Eagleview Lofts
Member
4 posts
Nov 22, 2009
8:53 PM
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The purpose of this hobby is to enjoy the birds and grow every year, by recruiting new fliers and retaining old flyers. We have been sucessful in doing the above, with the exception of this year. This year I am seeing more and more fliers including myself, that are dropping out of competition and the political nonscense. This is supposed to be about the birds. After reading these e-mails over the past year, I can clearly see its all about power. We have so many flyers that are being BULLIED by their Regional Directors, or persons just because they sit on the Executive Committee. We are being Bullied out of morning fly times and forced to fly in the afternoon heat. I have heard of so many different reasons from so many different people. ie we have better birds than you have. We have been flying for 25 years, etc.... Just to name a couple. Now we are being BULLIED out of forming new regions. This is a very sad turn of events and this type of control needs to stop. We have already lost 12 good flyers from the Carolina region and if this proposal is passed, we are getting ready to loose another 25-30 from the San Bernadino/Riverside area and who knows how many more. This is supposed to be a hobby but you guys are slowly taking the joy out of it. Whatever you decide just remember, when we make decisions like this and FORCE fliers to fly with people they dont like or persons that have mistreated them in the past there are bound to be consequences. I hope people reading this e-mail can see through this smoke screen. Mike
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George R.
188 posts
Nov 22, 2009
9:06 PM
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Cliff
I thought you understood how I feel about this issue
it has nothing to do with you or me it is about the hobby , The purpose of the World Cup and NBRC Fly is to FIND the best kit and CROWN it as a Champion .
I dont care who ownes the Kit or where it is housed what strain, Color, as long as the FLYER pays his entry fee and a judge that was picked by a RD judged his Kit and he qualified that Flyer should be good to go for the Finals.
any way Cliff I am not sure what will happen but I will always base my vote on what is good for the FLYERS and the HOBBY , not what is good for ME or just my region( it dont affect me so why should I care attitude ).
Who knows maybe one of those Guys that was going to Fly in the new region could have won the World Cup .. I guess we will never know...
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 9:56 PM
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George R.
191 posts
Nov 22, 2009
10:06 PM
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Hows that for a slippery slope Cliff ? Thanks to the thinking of a few men the World Cup will lose a additional amount of Flyers.
I guess it dont matter .. then It might be easier for those that wish to prevent OTHER FLYERS from flying to win the World Cup...
Maybe that was the Plan all the time ...
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 10:07 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3854 posts
Nov 22, 2009
10:45 PM
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Regions need to be decided by geographical boundries and must never have anything to do with who likes who. This is not a playground of 8 year olds.
Not everybody can fly in the mornings unless you have a tiny region. The prime time to fly in the Spring is from 7:00AM to 5:30PM. The prime time in the Fall is from 7:30AM to 5:00PM. The best days to fly are Monday through Sunday. Everybody can fly these choice times and days. There should never be a problem. The RD needs to change the starting point every year so one person doesnt get locked into 7:00 or 7:30AM fly time every year or a day like Saturday. It is easy to do and nobody bitches.
Nobody should ever have thier choice of times and days based on thier experience or precieved bird quality. When that type of shit happens is when regions want to split into little tiny segments because it is not a fair competition. People are being removed from a level playing field because of this crap and its got to end. We have had that senerio go on in the last year or two. You all know it.
The WC needs to sit down and really decide what they need to do to get the interest rejuvenated and shorten the final. Way too much time is required of the judge to take in the countries that are involved.
The NBRC has to do some work as well.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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warpspeed
112 posts
Nov 22, 2009
11:34 PM
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mike who has bullied who. from my understanding there are only 4 to 5 people in 9d san bern/riverside region that had a problem. the real problem is when those people go out and recruite other people from the region that did not know what was going on or didnt have a problem to fly with them so that now they could have more qualifiers and hurt the exsisting region. nick you are correct this is not a playground we are supposed to be grown men and act like it. the only time the joy is taken out of it is when u loose just like the only person happy with the judge is the winner.also i believe no one is forcing anyone you have a choice fly or dont fly thats why we have rules and laws if its about the birds then let the birds decide it.
abel
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 11:36 PM
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Eagleview Lofts
Member
5 posts
Nov 23, 2009
12:11 AM
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Warpspeed
There are numerous members that left your club due to being Bullied. These guys are master fliers and some of the top competitors in the world. Some of these guys are the founding fathers of your club and they choose to leave. A couple of years ago I inquired about joining your club. At this time you had approx 34 members. Now you have less than ten. I guess everyone left because they were having such a great time. And don't say these guys left because they weren't competitive. If you look at the results from the qsdc fly they beat everyone by 1100 points. You guys have destroyed your clubs your regions and now you are tearing the NBRC apart. Our fore fathers would turn over in their graves behind this political nonscense.
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Eagleview Lofts
Member
6 posts
Nov 23, 2009
12:24 AM
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cliff this is the United States of America. This is supposed to be a democracy not a dictatorship. We are supposed to be recruiting new fliers not loosing them. You too have torn your region apart because of unfairness. Just like the club I mentioned in the Inland Empire. You guys on the east coast are doing the same thing as guys out west. Discouraging members from flying. Now you guys are attempting to Destroy and separate fliers in the NBRC . Why can't we all fly, enjoy our birds and have a good time. No one will Bully me or Force me to fly anywhere. I would rather not fly at all. There are many others that share the same opinion.
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Mongrel Lofts
613 posts
Nov 23, 2009
1:13 AM
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Cliff,
Here is a question. If you get one qualifier for every 10 or 15 flyers. What does it matter where you draw the lines in a region.
I'm going to stick with your region that just batted down the 12 flyers. Not to make it personal but because it is a food example. If Chuck got his way and formed a new region in your region. There would be one more qualifier in the area. Just like there would be if they flew with you. If more guys drifted to Chucks side, then eventualy you guys would end up flying together anyway. You would have to join up to fly. No matter how you slice it, for the area, you get one qualifier for 10 or 15. Since they are all in the same area, the judge would not have to travel any further if you guys were together or two seperate regions. I just don't see the extra expense! It's one qualifier for 10 or 15. Kits, no matter how you cut the region.
The bigger problem is distance for those living way away from the bulk of flyers. That is an added cost, more so than spliting araeas. What's your thoughts. KGB
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warpspeed
113 posts
Nov 23, 2009
1:45 AM
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mike i didnt know enforcing rules and laws was being unfair and we have never had 34 members i have been in the club since 1990 longer than some of the people you mentioned and been winning since then. 3 guys left because of the controvery or bulling if you need the exact number and one is a master flyer the other master flyer left a while ago because he moved and they are all my very good friends .dont bring the bru into this rules where changed on the fly as you went along and outcomes came out of things that should have not.i will mention it you refer to the CPRC and we have 11 members and i am proud to be a member. those of us that are hardcore pigeon flyers will fly regardless and those of us that are pigeon keepers will make excuses.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 2:21 AM
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warpspeed
114 posts
Nov 23, 2009
1:52 AM
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KGB i see your point i think then the best thing is get rid of all the boundries like that everyone can fly with who ever they like. list lets not forget cliff and chuck are brothers eventually they will be at peace blood is always thicker than water and it should be left up to them to decide when because at the end of the day the most important thing is family
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Velo99
2221 posts
Nov 23, 2009
5:08 AM
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For those of you who dont know,Chuck is the NBRC RD for this disputed region and Cliff is the WC RD. This should work itself out over the course of the next year without creating a new region.
BTW congrats Chuck.
If they like Cliff in the NBRC,vote him in. If they like Chuck in the WC,vote him in.
Its the flyers in the affected regions who have the vote on the RD. If the flyer dont feel they are getting a fair shake,vote in an RD who they feel is fair. This is a democratic process thats as fair as it can be. The controversy should be contained within the region(s) affected.
If you dont fly,you dont vote. We cant always get our way and this "I am taking my ball and going home" mentality is pretty juvenile.
jmho
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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George R.
192 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:27 AM
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Kenny
The World cup has no voting process in place for RD'S
each region is allowed to conduct their own way of Holding a vote .
According to Ron Duncun who WAS the GC for the World Cup last year he allowed Cliff to make up the Ballots and Guidlines because Cliff was the RD at the Time when he and Chuck both ran for RD.
I cant understand how Ron let a participant dictate how the Voting process would be done. Ron should have told Cliff how the Voting process should be handled..
Everyone on Chucks list never recieved a Voteing Ballet is that fair ????
By Chuck being elected as RD for the NBRC the flyers have spoken in his Region that they are ready for CHANGE.
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George R.
193 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:32 AM
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Ken Billings
The vote was in FAVOR of the new Region PASSING at the Time that Rick Shoening decided to pull the proposal of the table , I just wanted to make sure you knew that.
In all my time on the NBRC and World Cup commitee's I have never seen a Proposal taken of the table while the Voting is taking place .
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George R.
194 posts
Nov 23, 2009
8:43 AM
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Here is another side of this issue
Cliff,
I can't believe that You won't let it rest. As far as I know, it is a done deal. We had the majority of the votes, but for some reason it was pulled, while still in the voting process. When Our Proposal was sent to the WC GC, He sent it for a 3 day discussion period. You immediately began fighting it, tooth and nail. The GC even ask You to sit it out, since You were so personally involved, but of course, You could not do that. After 3 days, the discussion period was over, and it was put to a vote, but You continued to fight it. Again You were asked to stop posting. Again, You could not. This Proposal was to have a New Region put in place. Not split an existing one. The only Flier that You have, or would have lost, is Myself. Anyone can ask Their WC RD how it played out.
What You have accomplished, is to prevent 12 Guys from competing in the WC fly. Don't You think the WC could use the kit fees from 20, to 30 kits? That is really promoting the sport, and encouraging others to compete. It will be a false victory for whoever wins, knowing that there are kits out there that were not flown.
You say that I could not be elected as WC RD. Well, On the 2009 entry form, I checked yes, I would like to run for that position. The next thing I know, I received an e-mail from Ron Duncan, stating that the only votes that were cast, were for You. You held the vote without contacting anyone, but "Your Crew". If the rest of the Region had known, I am sure that I could of been elected. The majority of the Region has spoken, by electing Me the NBRC RD, for Region 1D, in a fair vote. A lot of things have not been on the up and up, and the NC Roller Men are tired of it.
You also say that We want an easier Region, because Yours is too tough. Bullshit!!!Do You remember the meeting that was held at Your apartment. When You Guys were asked to move the fly times around, We were told that "Your Crew" were the senior fliers, and had the better Birds. That is nothing but pure BULLSHIT!!! In the 2008, NBRC 11-Bird comp, I placed 4th in the Region, beating You, and most of "Your Crew". Most of the Men listed in the Proposal can put up a great Kit, and You know it. These are Guys that have had Birds for 10, 20, 30 years. Sure, there are a couple of new Guys, but isn't that part of Our hobby? These are just a few of the reasons that the Men in the Proposal will not fly with You. Anyone can ask the Virginia Boys why They left this Region, to get Their own.
In the last couple of years, there was I think, 6 new Regions put in place for various reasons. You did not fight a single one of Them. I think that shows that You have made it a very personal matter, concerning Our Proposal. You may still control the WC Southeast Region, but if You compete with the NBRC Region 1D, You will be forced to fly in a totally fair fly. Get used to it.
I am not going to continue to respond to Your endless dribble. I have moved forward, and hope that You can do the same. I am sure that You and Gary Roberts will continue to belittle, and degrade, anyone that doesn't agree with You. We all know that Gary writes a lot of post for You. Careful now, Remember, I have the e-mails to prove it.
Cliff, You have won this one, so drop it and let it go. We are all only here on this earth for a short time. Don't You think it is time to move forward? It is not personal with Me, It is about puttin' up the Birds in a Fun, Fair, Fly!
Chuck
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 8:44 AM
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SpinCityRollers
304 posts
Nov 23, 2009
9:39 AM
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HELLO AGAIN CLIFF
Here we go again You are like George BUSh like I said in the the post that they deleted you try to use your power to influence things but we figured out you motives are not for the people of course you have done a great job as the fly coordinator and I applaud you for that. But this is ridiculous. HERE IT IS FOR EVERYONE TO SE A PERSON USING HIS POWER AND INFUENCE FOR HIS OWN GAIN!!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GEORGE BUSH STYLE STILL HAVENT FOUND NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION but were still at war STOP tha WAR BRING HOME THE TROOPS
and Cliff stop this Shit and let the people speak.
and cliff didnt you tell us we had to merge together and fly in bigger regions wouldnt that mean forming region out of normal boundaries if you dont live by alot of pigeon flyer you cause your own gripe.
MAD MAX the Whinner
2 time top 10 flyer in the Nation
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 10:01 AM
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katyroller
647 posts
Nov 23, 2009
12:59 PM
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Mad Max,
This isn't a political site. Please leave your beef with G.W. Bush and the War out of it.
Thanks, Tracey
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Velo99
2222 posts
Nov 23, 2009
1:35 PM
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Max,
Your post doesnt make any sense to me.
George is butting in another regions business again and discussing WC business on an open forum along with Cliff.
This is an issue thats best left to the people who are elected to resolve these types of disputes.
The WC directs each region to elect an RD at the end of the finals. Its not Rons or the GCs responsiblity to set up a system,its left to the region. Cliff hasnt built that region from the ground up as you guys like to imply. You need to be talking to the WCGC not bashing the shit out of each other on the forums and lists if you want any resolution to this problem.
Bottom line is this. If the Carolina guys want to change things they gotta fly in the WC to have a vote.
Suck it up,fly and vote.
You cant stand on the sidelines and expect to catch a touchdown pass. You gotta be in the game. If you dont fly and dont vote,dont gripe about the rules.
If you dont have a dog in the hunt,butt out.
This is definitely something that the members of the region should be discussing,not us.
All we will do is muddy the water.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 1:52 PM
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Bill W
1 post
Nov 23, 2009
4:23 PM
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Roller Men,
Usaully I try not to get involved in private matters, but in this case I feel inclined to offer a little wisdom my father taught me. Everyone has dirty laundry, it is never hung out on the line. There is always certain articals of clothing, that even clean, never go out on the line, but hung on the private basement line to dry. My hope would be that all of us our men of honor, if there is a problem handle it in private not on the open forum. Handle it within your region if it is a region problem. If it is bigger then that, there is a system in place to handle it. If your not happy with your Regional Director and feel he has misused his office write in private to a National or World officer. Voice your concern, these men have been intrusted by all of us to look out for our hobby. Yes sometimes we loose a debate, that is the time to suck it up and just keep playing, it will make you a better individual in the end. Just my thoughts, take them for what they are worth. Bill Whitby Utah
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2160 posts
Nov 23, 2009
5:28 PM
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Kenny Billings,
I don't disagree with you regarding the formation of this specific region. It could certainly work from a logistical point of view. On the surface, we can just keep granting new regions to any ten men that request it, without regard to the geographical boundaries of the region. But is that the direction that the World Cup (and NBRC) should be going? Where do we draw the line in the formation of regions without boundaries? That's all I'm asking.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 5:28 PM
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Jerry Allen
GOLD MEMBER
374 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:45 PM
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As a member of the club in question, I long for the good old days
of fellowship, fly’s & fun.
My tea leaves and my 3 legged bullfrog predict the issue will be resolved shortly with a positive outcome for the Club, the World Cup & NBRC.
I’m looking forward to 2010 and the rebuilding, refurbishing of our club,
stronger with more members, better communication, & more fly’s.
As with anything in life that is worth fighting for,,, the struggles & heartaches
make victory that much sweeter.
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SpinCityRollers
305 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:16 AM
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let me make it simple 4 u vello
Cliff only pushes this because it effect him that the way he is alway looking for self gain.
I knew I had to Break it down for you
especially for someones formely kNOWN AS
redneck hillbilly
HMM
mADMAX
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2009 9:17 AM
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George R.
197 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:35 AM
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Max I think you made a mistake
I think Kenny used to call himself "REDNECK HIPPIE"
Is that Correct Kenny H. ?
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2009 11:21 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2162 posts
Nov 24, 2009
10:04 AM
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Madman,
I had nothing to gain, personally, from this thread. In fact, I knew that it would open up the possibility of personal attacks from men with no couth, like yourself. But I am interested in the prevailing attitude among the flyers regarding this issue. I will know better next time than to seek the opinions of the flyers on a public forum. Apparrently it is just not possible for many men to discusss the issues without attacking others....lesson learned!
Cliff
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