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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
mist nets
mist nets
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steve49
336 posts
Nov 23, 2009
3:24 PM
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i used to help the audubon society catch and band migrating songbirds along the southern shore of Long Island in the fall. it occurred to me that we could stretch mist nets (fine plastic netting) across a couple of bamboo poles, and erect it when our birds are out. this way, if a cooper tries to swoop in to chase the birds, he'll fly right into the nets, just like we did to catch hundreds of birds along the beach. they just can't see it! now, the pigeons, on the other hand, if they land on your roof or kit box, will not be effected because you would erect the nets a few yards away. plus, you can easily take down the nets. certainly an idea if a person has the room, but the expense is hardly anything, as the nets are cheap. its not totally foolproof, but if you're still flying, and worried about attacks at the loft, its something you might consider. and i never heard anyone mention it. btw, welder gloves would be useful to 'extract' the bop from the net, cuz they won't be in a good mood. but hey, you take them for a drive, and your birds are safe. ??? what do you think?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Sound Rollers
123 posts
Nov 23, 2009
4:21 PM
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Steve, I don't think that's legal.
John
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Jerry Allen
GOLD MEMBER
372 posts
Nov 23, 2009
4:34 PM
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I may be wrong on this, but the way I understand the BOP situation
is,, that we cannot trap or transport them in any manner.
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steve49
337 posts
Nov 23, 2009
5:16 PM
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well, i wasn't sure about the actual transport or capture, but it can't be illegal to protect your birds in a non lethal manner as i described. keep in mind, while the bop is deterred, your birds are able to escape harm. it sounds like a win/win situation for both bop and roller. so, as jerry stated, are we actually trapping, or simply erecting a fence or wall? there will certainly be legal implications here, just as John and Jerry pointed out, but doing nothing is just not an option. I would think we have the right to protect our birds, just as we would our dogs or livestock, as long as no predator is harmed. perhaps the wording needs to be tweaked, as i'm sure the Dept of the Interior would much prefer a non lethal attempt to thwart the bop BEFORE they do harm. just look at wolf reintroductions, education and deterents are legal and preferred methods of dealing with predators and our livestock. our birds deserve protection, just as farmers livestock, and if we as a community look for a non lethal, effective method of protecting BOTH our birds and wild predators, how long can current rules stay in force? We need to find the best way to protect both our birds and native wildlife, and as long as we aim to do that, eventually the law will work in our favor.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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steve49
338 posts
Nov 23, 2009
5:19 PM
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AND, what do the other pigeon breed flyers think? maybe the voice of a few is not that effective, but the roar of a large crowd will be heard a lot better!
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Jerry Allen
GOLD MEMBER
373 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:21 PM
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On the ladder of life as we speak, pigeon people are on the bottom step against
federally protected animals.
If pigeons were viewed as cute & cuddly by the public and media, instead of a pooping
annoyance we would have a better chance of protecting our birds / investments.
People have soon forgotten of the valuable assistance they provided during
pervious war time encounters.
Until we obtain some famous and positive publicity ( Oprah ) LOL :))
we are forced to play by their rules if we want to stay in the game.
As it stands the only protection we have at this time is trying to
fly at alternating times and lock down if things become too fierce.
If pigeons were a necessity to the food chain to feed humans as
cows, sheep, or pigs, and viewed as a vital supply of food instead
of hobby or sporting event we would stand a better chance.
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katyroller
648 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:32 PM
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Steve,
I'm sorry but this idea is a quick trip to jail and a hefty fine. I would not think about trying it!
Tracey
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
606 posts
Nov 23, 2009
6:52 PM
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After you have trapped the shark in your net, and put your hands on it and put it in a holding pen till your pigeons trap,What part of trap and transport do you not understand?? JDA
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TheGame
658 posts
Nov 23, 2009
7:55 PM
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Intersting Idea. But how far would you drive to release a trapped BOP? What makes you think the BOP will not simply fly back to where it was trapped?? Especially if it is nesting in the area?
BOP's also have greater vision than pigeons, so I am sure it could easily cover a vast area of land and with its birds eye view and find its way home.
Then again with these nets you risk catching other wild birds/wild animals and even a pigeon that is not the smartest one in the kit.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2009 8:03 PM
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steve49
339 posts
Nov 24, 2009
2:44 AM
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JDA, i DO understand about transport and trapping of bop's. i brought up the idea because you wouldn't be using a defined trap, you simply have a net for protection, and if the bop flew into it, it was being detained long enough for your rollers to escape being caught. the bop would be free to leave unhurt, but might, and i say might need your assistance to free itself from the net. legally, i am not trying to say this complies with any law, as i don't know if it would, does or will. all i was saying is this is a NON lethal means of delaying the attack on our birds long enough for them to be safe. if legally you can't trap, i suppose the gov't would or could define the net as a trap. ok, so that's why i said the law may be changed to allow this because it wouldn't harm the bop, only prevent it from reaching your birds. PLUS, you'd have the added advantage of the bop remembering the net's approximate location, like a dog with a bounddary collar, and avoiding the area. again, i'm not saying this is legal, only that it could or should be. i understand the idea of harming bop's, and the reason the laws were enacted. it wasn't only pigeon flyers who took the law into their own hands. it was poultry farmers or any other farmer or gun toting yahoo who wanted to 'shoot them varmints'. i think it was only an excuse to shoot and kill what was perceived as a threat. c'mon, to travel 100 miles to a mountain top to wait and shoot migrating bop's isn't removing a threat to someone who's livestock isn't even in the same vicinity. its all about an old way of life, and its called hunting. there are numerous pigeon lovers who also love hunting,and many hunt whatever they want. i'm not a hunter, but know many. unfortunately, pigeons are incidental, as pointed out, and their achievements during WWII has long been hailed, but few have remembered outside the hobby. and Shiv, the nets might catch a sparrow or other songbird, but again, when you're flying and your birds trap, the nets come down. if a songbird is caught, you simply release it unharmed, just as you would any other.
Tracey, i'm certainly not looking to break and laws, or am i suggesting we do that. I'm only suggesting that this idea could be proposed because of its limited impact on wildlife, a far better idea than what many hobbyists have done in the past.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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katyroller
649 posts
Nov 24, 2009
5:41 AM
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Steve,
"Tracey, i'm certainly not looking to break and laws, or am i suggesting we do that. I'm only suggesting that this idea could be proposed because of its limited impact on wildlife, a far better idea than what many hobbyists have done in the past."
Sorry, I came off harsh. I re-read your post and thought about it for awhile. The idea is a feasible one that could be proposed to wildlife officials. I don't foresee them allowing fanciers to do the "trapping" unless you hold
some type of permit/license.
If I had nuisance resident BOP I would be willing to give biologist access to my property to conduct the trapping and reloctaion to a more suitable area. Try proposing it to your local fish and game and let us know what their response is. The actual trapping would most likely be conducted by the Feds but the locals should be able to give you an idea how the Feds might respond.
Good Luck! Tracey
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2009 5:44 AM
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pigeon pete
435 posts
Nov 24, 2009
12:09 PM
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Steve.
How do you get the BOP to fly in the direction of your one net.? using a 'stool pigeon' would surely be seen as entrapment.
Unless you errected dozens of them all around your property from floor height to a height of 100ft I cant see how they could work. If there were enough to work surely the pigeons couldn't fly around for them.
Oh and in some areas you can get prosecuted for transporting or being in posession of a hawk feather.
Pete.
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bman
732 posts
Nov 24, 2009
12:25 PM
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Maybe I am missing something ?
But how are the pigeons going to avoid it?----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
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steve49
340 posts
Nov 24, 2009
1:37 PM
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i'll try to address each question in order, but first i want to clarify my points. yes, presently its illegal to trap bop's w/o a license. its also illegal, and immoral to destroy them, as they're only doing what comes naturally. i've suffered losses to bop's, not to the extent others have, but i did lose birds. i much prefer a rational solution to a problem that could derail all the good efforts of law abiding citizens to this point. guys, wouldn't you prefer a non lethal means of protecting your birds? i'm sure you would. not sure of the gov't office that controls wild birds, but please, someone post what organization needs to be contacted in regards to this.
let me offer a scenario, and you tell me its legality. you're in your yard, and your birds just landed. over your shoulder a cooper hawk attacks your birds, sending them scattering for all four corners. the hawk chases one of your birds, but somehow doesn't gauge the distance to a cyclone fence on your property. the pigeon flys over the fence, with the hawk in close pursuit, but the hawk slams into your neighbor's fence, and is killed on contact. first, is your neighbor at fault/libel because his fence killed the hawk? are you, since your birds were the reason the hawk flew into the fence? can you see where this can go? we need to galvinize our members, bringing the other flyers of other breeds into our camp, and finance a legitamate argument to the current law.
the idea of the net is to put it up as your birds are landing. with bamboo poles, its lightweight and only needs to stretch across maybe 30 feet on either side of your kitboxes. it would have to be at least as high or higher than the boxes, but i'm not sure exactly. this isn't a way to stop attacks in the air, that's just beyond the scope of this setup. with pvc pipes set into the ground, the pole only needs to be lifted up and dropped into the hole, maybe 6" or a bit deeper to hold it upright. the nets stretch across an open area on either side of your kitboxes, effectively cutting of the path of any bop. i'm not advocating traps, baited with live birds. our flying rollers are presently the bait. Pete, you'd need to surround your kitboxes, so if you're open on all four sides, you'd have to be able to setup from all directions. if you're boxes are up against a building, you'd have to setup from the front and both sides. Ron, your pigeons also will not see the nets, thats why i suggest as soon as they land, up go the nets. and again let me remind you that current laws prohibit the trapping of protected species. the thing we need to determine is, are we trapping them? or did they fly into our protective nets? i'm convinced that the powers to be can see our side, and as long as we offer a reasonable means to protect our birds, they would have to give it thought. these laws are meant to protect wildlife. legally, our birds are wildlife, and it can be argued that the bop's, unless contained, are wrecking havoc on our birds. trust me, if bop's were routinely flying into yards and attacking little dogs and cats, something would be done about it. consider the investment we've made in stock and feed and housing. how can a law not take that into consideration? the law itself doesn't take anything into consideration, its the people who write the laws who need to see both sides. instead of going after those who take matters into their own hands, i'm offering a way around that will at least protect our birds when they're on the loft.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
564 posts
Nov 24, 2009
2:28 PM
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Steve,
You are about to receive a very unwanted visit from the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Give it up brother, it is a lose, lose situation.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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steve49
341 posts
Nov 24, 2009
3:00 PM
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hey Joe. maybe, maybe not. first, i'm only proposing ideas, that can be formulated into law. do you know that there was a time where there were no laws protecting wildlife? how do you think those laws got enacted? i know this is a slippery slope, because of the negative ideas of pigeons in the first place. however, who will try to protect our hobby if not ourselves? i never said it was going to be easy, but you've either got to think i'm daffy, or you think protecting our birds in a non lethal manner is a good idea. do i think this will fly? not sure, but i know i'm willing to kick it out there, and see how many others are willing to get onboard. one of the problems i see, is most just breed more birds, and would rather not engage our gov't. i don't think that's the right way to solve the problem. and i'm not saying if it becomes legal to erect mist nets, that losses won't continue anyway. afterall, how many are willing to bother, even if it was legal? its too early to say, but at least you voiced your opinion. if i enquire further with US FIsh and wildlife, i'll let you know what they say.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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pigeon pete
436 posts
Nov 24, 2009
3:14 PM
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Steve,
I appreciate the principle of what you are suggesting, but by the time I go round errecting nets my birds would be inside.
If you have your kit box in a large enough space you could have the nets on a pulley system and just pull down on a rope to raise the 'curtain' in a jiffy.
To protect our birds while flying is the hardest thing to do, and deterring your resident BOP's to leave your birds alone by non-lethal methods is the best bet in todays climate.
regards
Pete.
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steve49
342 posts
Nov 24, 2009
4:03 PM
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hey Pete. yeah, i know that many kits trap fast, mine too when they're hungry and its not too hot out. logistically, the nets would have to be raised quickly, and i suppose once they land, a pulley system would work best. i hadn't really expected to raise the question of legality when i proposed the idea. however, after it was pointed out, we can't deny the legal issues. i don't want to bring the authorities down on anyone. honestly, i just thought it would help flyers who've had bop's attack around their kitboxes. i have had it happen to me. now i know that the law is unjust, if a non lethal method is used to remove or deter bop's. it just seems unfair that some wackoo can sit on a hill during migration and take shots at passing hawks, and we might unleash the authorities over protecting our birds. the world is not fair, but unless we attempt to fix it, it will continue to be the same. we're in an awkward situation, our birds are just not important to anyone but us. i understand that. i can't help thinking that what i was proposing seemed reasonable, but i'm just one person.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
567 posts
Nov 24, 2009
6:04 PM
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Steve, We are not talking about US laws but rather the enforcement of an international treaty between 14 or 15 countries. You are trying to climb MtEverest, good luck.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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steve49
343 posts
Nov 24, 2009
6:07 PM
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hey Joe, so is it against the law to 'think' about this? LOL
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
570 posts
Nov 24, 2009
6:54 PM
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Steve,
If you have ever dealt with these fellows from the USFWS, you would not ask that question. They tend to steamroller you, they might think that expressing your ideas on an open forum goes beyond "thinking about it". Be careful friend, these boys don't play fair.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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wishiwon2
241 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:29 PM
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Steve,
The problem will be the 'intent' of your action. Although your spoken intent is to deter BOP away from depredating on your pigeons. Intent will be determined by lay persons who have no knowledge of roller flying, BOP biology etc. They will however know that a device was employed that is commonly used to 'trap' birds.
I understand your thought and sympathize with you. We need to find plausible solutions to protect our birds. I dont not, however, think it is an option that will ever be approved for use as a 'deterrent' or non lethal harassment measure. Your reasoning is flawed you suggest that a defense could be, the nets were there and a BOP just happened to fly into it. That is like saying I shot the gun and a deer just happened to get in front of it. Im on your side and I still dont see it working out ...
I am not trying to discourage you from asking questions, just expressing my opinion that this idea isnt one I think will gain any acceptance.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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DHenderson
92 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:37 PM
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I know the Fish and Game will never allow this with a permit. There is too much risk in it allowing an amatuer to set up nets like this to protect their "fowl pigeons" which is the angle they will have on this idea.
You are sure to attrack a nice ticket for even setting up such a thing with them knowing about it.
The fish and game will never take pigeons serious or as a known life stock as us pigeon breeders do consider them.
As much as I can personally understand the method it will never fly unfortunately.
Whatever you do to protect your rollers will never be allowed by the fish and game period.
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pigeon pete
437 posts
Nov 25, 2009
5:14 AM
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I have an invisable dome over my shed, and when the hawk attacks, it hits the dome and kills itself.
If any authority figures are monitoring this, there is no point coming to see my device --
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steve49
344 posts
Nov 25, 2009
10:05 AM
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i would like to 'see' Pete's invisible dome, since i've got one too, and maybe his is better! ;-)
ok, i'm throwing up the white flag on this one. i suppose it was a waste of time posting this topic, and i certainly am not looking to attract unwanted attention, but i still feel the intent is warranted. i also know i'm preaching to the choir on this forum. i had no idea how the F&W guys are, and unless they are also pigeon flyers, this would be a real slippery slope to climb. the 'catch' is the term trapping. since the bop would or could be caught, that alone makes this method illegal. now, on the other hand, if a bop flies into a dayscreen and injures itself, what then? i'm not even going to go there, as it seems i'm wasting mine and your time. i thought it was a good idea, but not all good ideas are implemented.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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