winwardrollers
335 posts
Nov 25, 2009
10:18 AM
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Scott
What is it that you...learned from Judging for two months?
What about the Burmingham Rollers as a whole...not singling out individuals or families?
bwinward
By the way... Thanks.. for your time for the last two months.
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katyroller
652 posts
Nov 25, 2009
10:40 AM
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Scott,
Did you see any "color" birds or kits with alot of color birds that impressed you? I'm not trying to be a smart@#$, seriously!
Tracey
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Mongrel Lofts
616 posts
Nov 25, 2009
11:31 AM
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Brad,
I can tell you Scott was sure high on the quality in the kit you flew for him. While he was here, he talked a lot about your birds. I have to get up and visit you. I'm in utah often with my job. Sure sounds like you have a good thing going on up there. KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2009 10:01 PM
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SpinCityRollers
310 posts
Nov 25, 2009
9:36 PM
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yes he did at Randy Gibson and Marlon Garnett
I will let him answer
MadMax
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SpinCityRollers
311 posts
Nov 25, 2009
9:37 PM
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but they are not always colored they come black, red, check and regular colors too but they come out of color birds.
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2009 11:41 PM
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Scott
2632 posts
Nov 27, 2009
2:49 PM
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Brad let me just say that this was a grand experiance that went much farther than the birds, how we can pull off such a feat with no hitches is mind bogling and it was due to Cliff and all the guys that stepped up to the plate to help make it happen.
Yes I did learn quite a bit about other type of birds and the breed in general, one thing is for sure , all have challanges whether it be a low flying type of family that has to lift to a comfortable zone to roll correctly or a strong flying type that you have to keep you thunb on.
As a note many of the teams that looked like they were going to tear it up just fell apart with out birds, the same held true for the 11 bird teams.
As for your team , it was a team that stuck in my head as a solid team of quality birds that could have done it. But you just had your thumb on them too hard which put them looking at the loft while still on the clock and if I remember were down at 18 min, this cost you big but is part of the game, I suspect they are strong birds.
Tracey , there were none with color birds in any numbers that I'm aware of ,most I would venture to say had none as to be expected but then why would there be ?
I would say Randy Gibson had a few Andulutions though I'm sure as he made mention that he would cross that side onto what he called his Hard Core side which were Borges birds, you need to talk to him about the details of his birds.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2009 9:54 AM
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katyroller
656 posts
Nov 28, 2009
2:42 PM
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Scott,
I was not suggesting that there would or should be many color bird kits. I merely asked a question as to what you saw.
Tracey
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Scott
2645 posts
Nov 28, 2009
3:25 PM
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Honestly Tracey I didn't give much thought.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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katyroller
657 posts
Nov 28, 2009
3:32 PM
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Scott,
Thanks.
Tracey
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Guil Rand
10 posts
Nov 29, 2009
5:29 PM
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Scott,
Thanks for judging the NBRC National Championship. You did a great job, and I felt honored to be able to provide transportation for the Utah region. It was great to get to know you, and be able to pick your brain, and hear your views about rollers.
Thank you, Guil
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2181 posts
Nov 29, 2009
7:15 PM
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Scott,
Jay Knepp wanted me to remind you that the third place 11-bird kit has seven color birds in it, and three that were standard colors bred from color birds. Only one was a standard color, a red-grizzle. There were several other kits that won their regions and flew in the finals that had color birds in them. I am proud of you for not noticing the colors of the kits you judged!!! I have renewed confidence in your prior statements that when you are under a kit that you don't see color. And I hope that you can better-appreciate my point that many colors are very difficult for the average roller man to identify, as it has always been so, down through the decades. Let me echo Guil's gratitude for a solid job, well-done. in the face of many difficulties.
Cliff
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Scott
2647 posts
Nov 29, 2009
7:33 PM
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Cliff, there were very few,again, why would there be? But for the ones that were hard to identify it is because of the mutt gene getting washed futher and further back with pure blood trying to hold them together,so what was the point of mongralizing the breed in the first place if they are hard to identify ? By it getting buried like this is why new guys have to be very very careful.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2009 8:30 PM
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Scott
2648 posts
Nov 29, 2009
7:43 PM
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Guil, Thanks , it was a pure pleasure even if you did let me down on spotting Antalope right out there in the open on your side of the car LOL
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2182 posts
Nov 30, 2009
6:46 AM
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Scott
Maybe its because a few breeders enjoy the pursuit of other aspects of Roller pigeons, along with performance. Just as some men are very interested in the exactness of a pedigree, others enjoy different colors in their rollers, as well.
You are right about the "mutt" gene being buried. The genetically introduced color gene makes up so small a fraction, as it is almost nothing. In fact, genetically speaking, for all practical purposes these rollers can be defined as 99.9% pure. The more generations that go by, decade after decade, the only vestige visible from the original cross, is the pigment seen on the feather. And that visible sign is often over-looked by those not interested in learning the genetic knowledge that is linked to the inheritance of performance, colors, patterns and a host of other things that make a roller a roller.
At any rate, you did a great job and the flying segment of our fancy, thanks you for your contribution. I hope you enjoy the Plaque that signifies your achievement and gratitude from the NBRC.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2183 posts
Nov 30, 2009
6:50 AM
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Scott
And we agree, again, that "New guys should be very, very careful." Seeing the birds in the air for themselves is essential. Then, after they are satisfied with the performance, look deeper into the background of the birds, their pedigrees and backgrounds.
You yourself, have stated that color birds did not work for you. And I have also had problems with pure birds that looked great on paper but did not perform to my expectations.
If one prefers a performance roller with a pedigree and a history of standard colors, chose those. If one prefers a performance roller with a few added colors, chose those. But by far and away , the best choice is based on one's own two eyes, what one sees in the air, and if what he sees is what he wants.
Cliff
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katyroller
660 posts
Nov 30, 2009
4:57 PM
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Scott,
I will come clean and admit that part of the reason I asked the question I did, was a hope that you would say that you had seen color birds that performed well. My hope was that fans of the color birds would see that they can in fact compete successfully. After all isn't part of the goal to get as many folks as possible involved in competition flying?
Tracey
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Scott
2653 posts
Nov 30, 2009
5:54 PM
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Tracey, it is a tough game ,the best option is to keep the focus where it needs to be.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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katyroller
662 posts
Nov 30, 2009
5:58 PM
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Scott,
I agree with you.
Tracey
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2185 posts
Nov 30, 2009
6:17 PM
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Absolutely, Scott. On that point we do agree.
Cliff
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Mongrel Lofts
621 posts
Nov 30, 2009
6:59 PM
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Scott,
What color were those colored birds? Were they Blacks, Blue check and red check marks and called colored birds. Or were thye toy stencil, Pencil and Milkys. I jsut wonder how you could tell a black was a colored bird. When it is a normal color? Just wondering what colored birds were showing the goods. Or were they normal colors called color birds. Like Tracey, I'm just curiose as to what colors these colored birds were. KGB
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Scott
2655 posts
Nov 30, 2009
7:16 PM
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What color birds Kenny ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2186 posts
Dec 01, 2009
5:39 AM
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KGB
Let me see if I can help you out here. I believe Scott made a remark that "honestly, I didn't give it much thought". I give him tremendous credit for not giving the color of the birds any thought while judging them. I respect that, as we all should. And it is kinda hard to identify a color modifier at a good flying height, anyway.
I'll go way out on a limb and speculate that very few, if any, toy stencil, pencil or milkys birds were flown in the Finals. But if you know your genetics, as I know you do, you need to know that there were Indigo, Andy's, Reduced, Dominant Opal, and Reduced birds in the finals, and in one kit that placed third in the nation in the 11-bird, all but one were color birds. I KNOW THAT IT HURTS FOR YOU TO REALIZE THAT YOUR KIT OF "PURE" ROLLERS WAS BEATEN IN THE FINALS BY A YOUNG KID WITH A KIT OF COLOR BIRDS, AND JUDGED BY SCOTT CAMPBELL; but hey, so were lots of other good kits......and mine didn't even make it to the finals this year! LOL! I give Scott the credit for seeing only performance when the kit is in the air, as he said he would, and I give you the credit for making it to the big dance.
Oh, and you also need to know that not one of the flyers of those birds with color modifiers, crossed a non-roller to get it! LOL! These modifiers were just in the family from before any of the guys got their birds. And then we have to answer the question as to whether you consider the blue checks and blacks that are raised off of two Andy parents as color birds.....or whether you consider any of these birds that CARRY any of the color factors as color birds. They have the most same genes you know. No wonder Scott didn't see them! Most guys would not!
I am confidant that "MOST" birds were blue or red with modifiers identified in the original imports. Is that what you are getting at?
Just yankin' your chain a little...
Cliff
PS Tracey,
I hope this helps answer your question if you were curious as to the potential of color birds in competition.
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 6:00 AM
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Scott
2657 posts
Dec 01, 2009
7:52 AM
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Cliff, there were no kits or color birds worth mention on this fly other than Randy Gibson which I'm sure had some in his team. Cliff I DONT want this to get into a color bird pissing match, I didn't judge this for agendas QUIT !!!!
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 8:58 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2187 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:08 AM
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Scott
I had no idea you were so sensitive! LOL! I know Jay Knepp, whose son took third place, and we have traded birds back and forth,and with Ty Coleman, since we all breed and fly Turner birds that we got from Jay Yandle. I'm only taking him at his word, as the breeder, when he says 10 of his son's kit were color birds. We wouldn't expect you to be looking for them....But believe me, you did judge some nice kits that were majority color bird family. OK....I'll quit pickin'.
I did talk with Randy Gibson in Sacremento and he did tell me that he has created his family by crossing the Turner Andalusians onto Kiser/Borges lines to get the best from both worlds, just like any other roller man who wants to create his own family by crossing two other families whose performance he likes. I don't think I'll go that route, though, personally. I'm going the other direction with line-breeding and trying to weed out any of Jay's and Joe Bob's lines where they crossed onto the Turner line.
Cliff
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Scott
2660 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:22 AM
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Cliff,I don't know why Randy does what, but he did make it clear that he won't mate the color birds together. I suspect it is for the same reason as JoeBob and Jay crossed them. You may want to heed what others have learned , I suspect your motives are wrong, if could save you alot of years.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 9:36 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2188 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:50 AM
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Scott,
I am basing my decision to line-breed on the fact that crossing families like that broadens the gene pool to the extent that it significantly reduces the percentage of quality performers that are produced, as even you have advocated against doing. Jay has been a little more successful since he has crossed only one family into a sub-family off his main Turner family. Joe Bob has crossed in multiple families, as you know. And I am operating on the basis that Joe Bob told me that he regrets that he did not keep the main line of his Turner family straight and not cross them. Breeding strategies are something that can change with whereever the birds lead you. So far I have seen very positive results without regard to choosing mates based on color, and without crossing in other families. In fact, my best producers are the most line-bred birds. Every breeder needs to find what works for him. I may try it both ways and see what happens.
Thanks for your suggestion. Time will tell.
Cliff
On the "Line-breeding" thread you said, "For myself I run two lines that tie back in about 6-7 generations up from an already established family(KGB) , as of yet I don't cross them as the lines are getting far more consistant as far as the good one's , and the good ones tend to produce producers in much higher percentages, it is all in the selection." That's sort of the direction that I have chosen as well.
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 12:01 PM
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Scott
2663 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:57 AM
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Cliff, if the faults over power the good than inbreeding/ linebreeding blows them up , how tight are those birds(Turner) to begin with ? I honestly don't know
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2189 posts
Dec 01, 2009
10:10 AM
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Good point. That may happen, and if it does, I will be the first to let it be known so that others don't go down taht road. The positive aspect with this family is that there are three or four lines within the family. Though I have peds back to some of the original Thompson birds, most of mine are predominantly the 007 line (Indigo/Andalusians) From 007 to a bro/sister offspring mating , to a second brother sister offspring mating, to simple line-breeding from there down the next couple of generations, which is where I pick up. That line may be too tight, though I have seen excellent production (my best) with no identified recessives cropping up yet. I'll be keeping my eye out for them, though. The Rambo line (not as dominant a color bird line, but off the old Pensoms) is the hottest line and the most prone to bumping. Because of the instability, that line has been crossed into so many other Turner lines and other families that few "pure" Rambo birds exist today. But the Rambo/007 crosses seem to be more stable over the long haul. There are a couple other lines also, that are line bred, but these are the dominant two.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 10:46 AM
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Ragin Rollers
69 posts
Dec 12, 2009
6:05 PM
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Listen Scott Cambelllll,
I Thought you were a honest man but it appears that any bird with color just wont score in you mind?????
So this tells me you should not do any more judging any time in the future....
Russ.............
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fhtfire
2310 posts
Dec 12, 2009
9:13 PM
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Scott,
You fell into the trap...LOL....His first post were his first thoughts..."HE NEVER REALLY GAVE IT MUCH THOUGHT"...case closed....why do people keep asking and pushing...WE ALL KNOW HE THINKS COLOR BIRDS ARE MONGRELS>>>>HELLO!!...but again..HE NEVER GAVE IT MUCH THOUGHT!!...so that means he judged the birds based on performance....obviously if a kit took third in the nation with color birds..that proves he is no bias...my gosh man...you baited him and he took it...NICE guys...Man...this pisses me off....
Scott take months away from his family...every time I talked to him he was so excited about meeting everyone and that he was having a blast and then in the same breath he says how much he misses Tammy and being home...and you ASSHOLES have to bait him and attack him for doing a very TOUGH job....why is when someone does something nice and takes time out of there lives..for FREE we have to bash him...SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!.....YOUR ALL DICKS!!! Sorry but I am not usually straight to the point..but this is plain mean....When I see this....you see... guys like me would love to do this.....Judge the nation..but not if I am going to be butchered when I get done...god this bullshit....No wonder why nobody wants to Judge the Finals....becuase of this shit....sorry for all the cus words...but I am very irritated right now...yeah guys...bash the ones that actually get off the ass and do something....then we wonder why nobody wants to be an RD or help with anything....everytime somebody does..not pat on the back....you get a god damn knife in the back....The more I go on..the more I think this hobby sucks@!!!! ok...I need to take a break and play HALO3 and take my frustrations out on an alien with my rocket launcerh and battle rifle...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Man you guys all SUCK!!
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SpinCityRollers
321 posts
Dec 12, 2009
9:26 PM
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Hey ragin I have birds of color and scott know and saw my birds an i no way absolutly no way did he show bias to my birds because of it background or color also Randy Gibson has the same birds i have and he came in the top five and I believe the guy in 3 rd place had color bird too
Scott judges spin(simply that) and He wants them to be right on the money (SAME TIME)
I ve heard so much Bs about Scott it ridiculous to me he is A one in My book truly first class and thanks for taking the time to come by here
that my take on that
Ps and he is pretty funny too LMAO all day)
The inventor of the A.C.R.P
American Color Roller Pigeon ( ps should be spinning but rolling sounds better)
Marlon Mad Max Garnett
2 time top ten nation fly finisher
and breeder of spinning birds with color
Calm down Paul am here for you %$^%$&$5467 you crazy mein
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 9:28 PM
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fhtfire
2311 posts
Dec 12, 2009
10:14 PM
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Ok..I am back from halo3 and I am not calm again...good post Marlon.....No crazy..LOL...just dont like haters....and I will stand up for a friend....but I dont let friendship cloud my judgement...and no way should Scott have one negative comment for the time and energy he put into the finals.....Hey Mad Max....you da man...and Scott is a lot funnier in person...LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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