nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3910 posts
Nov 30, 2009
12:03 AM
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Explaining line breeding.
"Let me see if I'm starting to get the hang of this:
If you have a blue bar cock and pair him with a widow hen who's first mate became supper for a BOP and the widow has a ash red daughter you pair up with the blue bar's sire, that makes the blue bar's sire his son-in-law and the ash red hen his step-daughter and step-mother. When the blue bar and the widow hen have a cock chick, he is brother-in-law to the blue bar's sire and also his uncle and half brother to the ash red hen. Now, when the blue bar's sire and the ash red hen have a little cock chick, he will be 1/2 step-grandson being the ash red's son. So the blue bar's wife, the widow hen is his step-mother's mother, his wife is also his grandmother. Since he is now his wife's grandson as husband of his grandmother I think there is pretty good evidence that he is his own grandpaw!"
By Roy Cook (snake doctor)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2649 posts
Nov 30, 2009
6:41 AM
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Exactly Nick, and this is why I do very little inbreeding, the two lines of family is based off of 3 pigeons that were allready related.
Dave Mosely told me some years ago not to bring them too close too fast, linebreeding has worked well for me. I see many inbreeding just for the sake of inbreeding, in some cases inbreeding birds that have never been flown.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2009 8:02 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2184 posts
Nov 30, 2009
7:46 AM
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Nick,
I have just finished an article on Line-breeding.....sort of distillation of all the material on the subject that I have read. It'll be publilshed in the NBRC Bulletin after I complete the interview of the National Champions and get that in the Bulletin. so keep your eyes peeled...
Cliff
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
516 posts
Nov 30, 2009
8:06 AM
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I think that this is a Ray Stevens song?
here is a link to the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXU-ZdmzNmo
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2009 7:12 PM
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ezeedad
1081 posts
Nov 30, 2009
10:33 AM
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It seems to me that we need a clear definition of what is inbreeding vs what is line breeding.
To me line breeding is a modified form of inbreeding because mates chosen are related. Some people call themselves it line breeding when they see thay have a couple familiar numbers back in the pedigree. So what is the difference?
Pensom said, "In the manufacture of any strain of pigaons, many of us have become aware of the fact that, in order to preserve and maintain the highest qualities of these strains, we have to inbreed or line breed, which means the mating of relations."
I believe that the critical thing is in the selection of the birds used. Inbreeding brings more of the same genes together...good and bad. So selection is all important.
Paul G
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Scott
2651 posts
Nov 30, 2009
2:40 PM
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Paul,you are correct, a few of the same band numbers showing up back behind doesn't constitute an line bred line, nor a inbred line.
"FLOWN OUT HARD" selection is absoluty everything , and on top of that there needs to be stock sence and an understanding of the breed.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Snake Doctor
GOLD MEMBER
432 posts
Nov 30, 2009
3:33 PM
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This was /is an old "Lonzo and Oacar" song from 1947
I took a little poetic license with it! LOL
It could happen!
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"Semper Fi"
SD
Roy
Georgia
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
517 posts
Nov 30, 2009
7:15 PM
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Snake
Here is a link to your version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFPDjtX2Q4
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RT Williams
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ezeedad
1082 posts
Nov 30, 2009
9:44 PM
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Right Scott,
Flown out hard is ideal..but unfortunately not the option it used to be... at least in my area.. so in that case we have to have to rely more on stock sense and understanding of your birds.
Paul G
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fhtfire
2247 posts
Nov 30, 2009
10:16 PM
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Ok..here you go....
Inbreeding is incest...directly mating full siblings or Mother Son or Father Daughter.
Line Breeding too is a form of inbreeding.....but not directly related..like cousins, Grand Parents that have an outcross in the line...or have a common relative.
The best example of line breeding is using a Stud and mating many different females....then you mate those offspring....they may have the same father but different mothers...so you are fallowing the line of the Stud...hence line breeding..the one line will follow the stud or common ancestor.
The thing between the two is that they both lead to a dead end...one just takes longer to get there...inbreeding can get you inbreeding depression real quick...while line breeding takes you longer to get there..but if you dont ever bring in a true outcross....you will hit the wall in time.
Inbreeding depression will come in time no matter what if you never bring the outcross....and inbreeding depression is not always obvious.....
Examples
* Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability
* Increased genetic disorders
* Fluctuating facial asymmetry
* Lower birth rate
* Higher infant mortality
* Slower growth rate
* Smaller adult size
* Loss of immune system function
anyway..when you add the outcross...then you pretzel breed those offspring and inject the outcross back into your main stock...or your LINE..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2248 posts
Nov 30, 2009
10:24 PM
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See the inbreeding depression....
Ever hear this...Man my eggs are not hitting they get worse every year.....or man his birds are small....or...my young birds are dying in the nest or die as squeeks......or birds just start dying where as before you never had death....basically you see changes going for the worst when you were fine before...Here is another one....man the hen just quit laying...anyway...sometimes its not as obvious as web feet...or poor feather quality....you are lucky if you have that......
I feel...some that you see on top for awhile and then start fading away....missed the hidden signs and were looking for the obvious signs of inbreeding depression and miss the sweet spot to fix the issue with an outcross....and then they are to far gone and are having trouble bringing it back....most of the time...the outcross just needs to be a healthy bird just to inject the good stuff back in...and your roll that you had before will be easier to find...because you wont lose it all with one breeding..your inbred genes are still in there...anyway....it as easy as following the LINE!!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2009 10:25 PM
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Scott
2658 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:10 AM
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Good luck with that Paul !
(Right Scott,
Flown out hard is ideal..but unfortunately not the option it used to be... at least in my area.. so in that case we have to have to rely more on stock sense and understanding of your birds.)
Paul G
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Snake Doctor
GOLD MEMBER
433 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:40 AM
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Anyone have a copy of a pretzel breeding chart they could post?
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"Semper Fi"
SD
Roy
Georgia
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Bill from NJ
90 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:43 AM
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Thanks for bringing this up SD, I would like too see this also.
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Scott
2659 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:09 AM
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Can we follow charts for our matings ? for myself it comes down to balancing mental and physical traits, many of which can "only" seen through flying the bird from the nest to maturaty , this is the only way to see how it all comes together.
If I end up with actual inbreed (Bro/Sis father/ daughter mother/son ) it is because they were the best mates for each other, not due to their relationship.
BUT, that is because it is already an established family where anything that I grab relates in heavily with everything else ( within their line) , when we are talking pure out crosses or far out line breed it get much much more complicated.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 9:10 AM
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winwardrollers
336 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:12 AM
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Pirate Paul
Since we have more than one Paul...I can remember having this discussion before with you and don't ahve time right now so I will be short in my response. You stated lots of facts about the negative of both Line/In Breeding which I believe to be correct as well but you haven't stated the positive with Line?in Breeding...then you summed it all up by infering that it is a dead end...That is not so..it can be I agree but it doen't have to be...You never mentioned SELECTION..what happens with proper selection....not what happens with poor selection. I think we all can see that good breeding....may...need IN/LINE/CROSS breeding to get us to our goal. The problem I see in this hobby is to many cross breed first off to make their ...OWN family of rollers.. which is halarious in the first place...that is another subject ...but guys don't shy away from In breeding your birds if you see progress and especially lots of Line breeding and very little.. if any Cross breeding.
I have already told you the story of my birds Brother/sister mating who's parents were brother/sister mating who closely related to a half brother/sister mating with the fifth cock being full brother to the last mating...lol The birds are now wanting to bottle neck..I am not making them I'm just selecting the best birds and the birds are bottlenecking..I will save other lines of the same birds down the road so I don't have to Outcross. Do I out cross..Yes I play around..what have I found..losts of bad breed birds using all methods.
I got to get to work...........se ya
Bwinward
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winwardrollers
337 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:19 AM
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Chart will give you an... Idea.. of line breeding but don't follow it...It will take you down the road to what Paul Fullerton is talking about if you follow it blindly...make sure you get some.. Selection.. going and the only way you know is.. take good notes.
bwinward
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Scott
2661 posts
Dec 01, 2009
9:31 AM
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Brad, I told the pirate about those long posts that I don't read LOL Let me make it clear, line/ in-breed is the only road, but the proper selection has to be there or it is for nothing.
You put outcrosses together that don't manage the same and you have a real problem which a friend of mine is experiancing now as they are all over the board.
For myself I run two lines that tie back in about 6-7 generations up from an already established family(KGB) , as of yet I don't cross them as the lines are getting far more consistant as far as the good one's , and the good ones tend to produce producers in much higher percentages, it is all in the selection.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 9:49 AM
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winwardrollers
339 posts
Dec 01, 2009
7:51 PM
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Paul
Yes..we are on the same page..at least I have been on this same page for the last half hour read all you and Trampas wrote.
I think after reading your post... that you would run to another distant bird quicker than I would. I would work on milking out the gene pool that I got.
But then if one didn't get a good start...the story may be differant.
Simply if a bird has been breed well(has Variety in the gene pool behind it)..that variety didn't come from mixing the pot of all the families out there..but just simply breeding the best you have from a proven family..you will be better off in the long run at getting to your goal. Poor selection will ruin both really fast.
Now Paul..don't you have three families that you are mixing...or is it just the two...I have one family that I work with therefor we can't be saying the same thing...our breeding differance are easy to see if we look at it that way.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 7:57 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
522 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:15 PM
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Brad, Here is another half hour for you. lol
I wish my wife would type for me, I burned that bridge in college.
First off lets define the term
The term “linebreeding” is frequently used as a reference in Thoroughbred breeding to duplications of ancestors occurring beyond the fourth generational remove. In livestock breeding, however, the term “linebreeding” has a more specialized usage. An individual is considered to be linebred when both parents have multiple occurrences of the same “line” within pedigree space that is considered useful.
Second: “The purpose of linebreeding, in this sense, is to select one trait that happened to be uniquely expressed by that line.:
I do not think that we do this with performance breeds of animals. We are looking for multiple traits. Good control, fast, good style, Kitting, are just a few traits that come to mind with roller pigeons. “
This multiple trait idea can be called: Aptitudinal diversity
I believe that this is the most important statement in the article and is what we breed for.
“The breeding methods used to breed a racehorse are fundamentally opposed to the breeding methods used to breed livestock. Since Thoroughbred breeding is oriented towards performance, it is not concerned with selecting traits of relatively distant ancestors, but rather with selecting aptitudes. “
Why not to outcross:
“the central problem of Thoroughbred breeding is to find ways to blend a variety of aptitudes in a single individual.
The most obvious way to blend contrasting aptitudes is to outcross. Unfortunately, most outcrosses fail, and the reason for this is that the contrasting aptitudes conflict with one another, rather than blend.”
The Meat how to inbreed/linebreed
“Paradoxically, inbreeding is the most effective solution to the problem of blending contrasting aptitudes. When inbreeding to such ancestors through strains (familiy) of contrasting aptitude, inbreeding functions, in that respect, opposite its function in livestock breeding. While inbreeding to such ancestors will unavoidably select certain traits, both favorable and unfavorable,”
This is why linebreding/inbreeding works : “the shared genetic background of the strains will also contribute to a favorable blend of their contrasting aptitudes. “
Transformations of influence
Inbreeding through strains of contrasting aptitude is the dominant method of producing good racehorses for today’s major racing environments. The ancestors that currently occur within the most effective generational range and are most frequently duplicated in the best racehorses happen to be the very ancestors who descend through the most diverse array of aptitudinal types“
I hope this means to breed with in your family birds that have contrasting aptitudes. A deep, infrequent bird, to a relative that is frequent but less deep should give you a higher percentage of birds that are in the middle. Or as has been stated be selective in who you breed to whom, and use birds that do not share the same strengths. Some traits have to be present such as kitting, and control, but how many of us have seen a bird that can do it all?
I also think that this means we should breed tight. Keep your family together and you do not really have to find an outcross. It should be in your own family. I also think this means if you are lacking a aptitude in your family, You cross in a bird that has the aptitude, but you are really looking for an offspring that carries your lines aptitudes, and the new aptitude. This offspring is the bird that will have the most impact on your family.
So to do as Scott appears to do is a good way to do things. Have two strain within your own family. And when you need something pull the bird from your other family. Another way is to trade birds with your buddies that are working with the same family.
But what do I know I have only had these crazy birds for a couple of years.
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RT Williams
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fhtfire
2250 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:29 PM
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Win,
Just working with two families....The rubys and the Morts...but most of the stuff I produce now is my Flashover stuff...or a combination of the two families...I myself am not breeding pure on either side....and my base of pure is getting smaller and smaller as I remove breeders......to make room for more of the Flashover...anyway....My pures now are more or less used to cross back in....or if they fit into the picture.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
523 posts
Dec 01, 2009
8:39 PM
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Paul
Just curious, how do decide who to breed to who. You said "mine are off gut instinct". I will assume that you take good notes of your birds, and that your gut instincts are well informed.
What I am really asking is do you breed like to like (such as deep birds to deep birds) or do like a little variety, and the birds to compliment each others strengths and weaknesses?
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2009 8:40 PM
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J_Star
2193 posts
Dec 02, 2009
5:05 AM
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I have written several articles about the inbreeding, Line breeding, out-breeding and out-crossing with excellent diagrams. They are published in the article section on this website. Please visit them.
Jay
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Scott
2664 posts
Dec 02, 2009
9:30 AM
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Brad, I think that we both think a like which evolves around a hands on experiance with "our" birds.
First off not all birds can be brought in tight due to the faults over ride the goods, the only action then is to keep covering them up with crosses , the problem is in time you hit the end of the rope.
I will speak for Kenny here as his birds and hard work were the foundation of my family. Kenny came from a game cock back ground which carried over to his birds as far as breeding princples, and to a degree conditioning also. His bottom line was that it must inbreed without falling apart, and he like I worked hard finding the birds that could do so.
There is a lot of gene pool in these birds even when bred tightly for decade's , if they fail you either your selection is to blame or the birds were wrong to begin with , normaly someone will down breed a cross trying to fix their culls, bad move , dump the culls.
My stock evolves around a few key pigeons that carry "all" of the goods to some degree (speed,depth, quality)some heavier in particular areas than others obviously but that is where balancing of the matings comes in with the stock potential.
Every generation runs these birds tighter and tighter , and the percentages of qualty birds continue to rise, Why ? because these birds can inbreed/linebreed and I am able to knock the variety down to a minimum which brings in the charactoristics of what a first class bird must have which must all be brought together, no charts or articals pertaining to mammels can do this for you as you are aware , we have a very complicated breed breed here.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2009 9:37 AM
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fhtfire
2251 posts
Dec 02, 2009
10:00 AM
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Scott,
LOL...all breeds are complicated..LOL!! whenever you are breeding for "something"....it is not easy and never will be. Very few master it...Some just kind of figure it out..and Most do not. That is just the way it is. Its kind of like raising a house plant...some can master it...some can just do it...and most well.they have a bunch of dead plants around the house.
When you say you pick birds that inbreed without falling apart....well....all that means is the birds you are inbreeding have a wider gene pool and are further away from the wall.....Nothing anybody can say on this list that inbreeding is good and you can do it for long periods of time...is WRONG....Science is Science.....the problem is....is that we dont really know if it is our selection unless you do a whole genetic profile on each bird etc etc....but we dont and we cant...a bird or any animal is not a super animal....that you can inbreed over and over.....with no negative affects...it is just not possible and not true...you HAVE to inject a distant relative or an outcross....plain and simple...and sometimes that may not work.
One thing that we must remember is the distance to the wall is based on family and selection....and the distance to the wall are many different distances....one guy can take a family of tight birds and breed them for 20 years.....and that is fine....he got lucky and picked the best birds....the selection process can be just ONE bird that shakes the genes up and we pick that bird without even knowing.
Now..reading Peds and stuff is something that you should do.....when push comes to shove and try and stay close but not to close...but I was taught long ago by some of the top breeders in the country...that if you keep inbreeding animals it is actually hurting the breed in the long term....the reason being is that once you lock in the good you lock in the bad..and if the bad sticks...then you could end a breeds family tree....she said good breeders may inbreed one generation maybe two and if it works....they send there locked gene throughout there stock....if it does not work..usually all the animals from that mating are destroyed....that is what most of us do and dont even know it......and we call it something else..
Scott what you just explained in your breeding program is natural selection to keep you stock in balance...picking the birds that can inbreed and hold it together is basically picking the birds with the widest gene pool....not on paper....but actually the genetic make up...on paper it may appear close...but genetically the bird may have the genes lined up in a way that it is not tight...or a dominant gene is keeping the bird away from the wall....the birds you dont use are usually hitting a wall.
Percentages will go up for a period of time and for a period of time.....you can do no wrong...but it will catch you...inbreeding depression is like old age..sooner or later it will get you.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
340 posts
Dec 02, 2009
10:39 AM
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Scott
"we have a very complicated breed here."
I was just think about that the other day.
What animal family..and let's just stay with pigeons.. what group of pigeons... homers, fantails,..etc is harder to breed than the Roller..the roller has so many variables..some where in the last few day.. I was reading where pensom said that the rollers is the hardest breed to maintain..that is what got me thinking about it.
Bwinward
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winwardrollers
341 posts
Dec 02, 2009
11:20 AM
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Paul
You start with a stock that has good genetic make up...now you start breeding..why in your mind do things get worst..doesn't inbreeding bring positive and negative to the surface...sum are ovious and some will be hiding...can't some of the genes and factor that are not easily visable still bring good to the stock over the years or is it always negative factors that you end up with. There is no way I can line all the genetic factors/variables in my pigeons up in my life time.
I believe in inbreeding depression...But that is just a negative of inbreeding ..the positive is that you can acutally improve what you have.. I have already talked about the lab mice last year on this same subject ..that were inbreed for years..better than when they started with them..it was all about proper selection.
You stated.."inbreeding depression is like old age..sooner or later it will get you" Paul...Look at Tiger Woods if he would of stayed home he would not have had a problem...instead he started crossbreeding with mistresses and got in trouble if he would have keep inbreeding at home all would be fine..keep improving his family...but now he just complicated things.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2009 11:50 AM
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fhtfire
2253 posts
Dec 02, 2009
11:38 AM
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I agree with you...Rollers are hard to breed to just to maintain..compared to other breeds...but I will say from experience..that in the competition ring....all animals are created equal as far as complexity of breeding...as soon as you throw in a standard and competition or just competition....you then make it hard for every breed. There is no difference from us trying to get the depth quality, Kitting, Speed and so on in a competition for armed where you are judged against your peers as well as the standard....it the same fore a Lab Field Dog...you breed for smarts, attitude, Power, speed, swimming ability, muscle mass, balance, agility, instinct as well as breeding to keep the good hips and other issues that arise in labs.....because it is not old Jake on the back porch fetching a duck here and there.....No you are going up against the best and the standard...for a good looking, well rounded field dog.
Thats my thought...rollers are hard to maintain or keep the primary trait compared to breeding other animals..but when it comes to comp..I think it is just as hard
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2255 posts
Dec 02, 2009
11:41 AM
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Win,
I agree with you...you have to inbreed at some point to lock in what you want...and then line breed and pretzel to keep it going...I am just saying inbreeding generation after generation...and when I say inbreeding I mean...father daughter or full brother sister etc...so..I am talking real close close breeding...but we also have to remember that on paper it may look close but genetically in the bird it is different..that is the reason that many get away with it for so long.
But you are right..you HAVE to inbreed to set your good traits at some point or it is to hard to find it...is not consistant...so we agree....LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
342 posts
Dec 02, 2009
3:33 PM
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Paul
When I say inbreeding...I mean Linebreeding or it could be the other way around..lol
Uncle to Niece..Aunt to Nephew...are my best breeders as of now......I want to stock three full Brother's and Sister's out the same pair this year....that will tighten the pool down..in a portion of the young birds next year.
When you get thinking about it maybe there is no such thing as Aunt and Uncle in this project any more..lol
bwinward
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fhtfire
2257 posts
Dec 02, 2009
3:43 PM
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Those are my best hits too..but my best are cousins and second cousins.....those are almost always good....When I met with Chan Grover.....not to long ago....he told me too..that the key is cousins....and then the aunts and uncles etc.....anyway....I think if that you tighten the gene pool naturally...with good selection....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Pinwheel
29 posts
Dec 02, 2009
5:51 PM
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Well I think inbreeding is easier when your dealing with animals that have a short generation interval. As with the lab mice, they have inbred strains until every single individual is the exact same. Yes, there were lots of culls and deaths, but they kept crossing the healthy normals to normals until all recessive genes were expressed that were no longer deleterious. I assume you can do that with birds, it just takes longer for the offspring to mature and breed again as compared with mice. But experimentally, I believe pigeons are used for behavior models and thats about it. SO no need for the science community to get a bird that is void of any deleterious defects.
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2009 5:53 PM
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Scott
2665 posts
Dec 02, 2009
6:28 PM
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When you say you pick birds that inbreed without falling apart....well....all that means is the birds you are inbreeding have a wider gene pool and are further away from the wall
(nothing can be further from the truth Paul, if a bird can't with stand inbreeding/linebreeding it is simply an inferior bred bird)
.....Nothing anybody can say on this list that inbreeding is good and you can do it for long periods of time...is WRONG...
(the finest bred birds both here and abroad have been linebred / inbred long before the pirate had pubs and when only girls still wore ear rings.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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winwardrollers
343 posts
Dec 02, 2009
8:17 PM
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Pinwheel
You stated.."Well I think inbreeding is easier when your dealing with animals that have a short generation interval"
Yes.. horse are expensive to cull and take a year to produce one...pigeons much better and mice easy.
Tom Monson took Rick Scheoning and I to multi million dollar horse breeder..He was a geneticst...went into horse breeding then decide he would get homing pigeon for the very reason you stated this guy had country music playing in his pigeon loft... those loft were house size lofts..fully bricked on the front.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2009 8:26 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
524 posts
Dec 02, 2009
8:26 PM
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Paul
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you. I also think that what you do is what the article I posted was talking about. It is simply complicated.
The year after this one is when I really get to have fun with my breeding program. This was my 2nd year. So I get to mix up my foundation and see what i get. I also get to see if I produced anything worthwhile this year. I wil also be able to see what traits my breeders currently produce by the end of next year.
I breed 25 birds my first year and only got one bird that I believe stockable. She is know in the stockloft. I bred 70 this year and got 15 from Jon Farr. Hopefully thier will be a few good ones. And my Stock loft will be full of birds that I have seen fly.
Thanks again for your thoughts
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RT Williams
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fhtfire
2259 posts
Dec 02, 2009
10:10 PM
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Scott,
Dont mix science with feeling.....you are right...a bird that cant inbreed is a cull..that is fact..because it is not holding the GOOD genes....if it cant stand you are right it is inferior....genetically and well your standards.....now a bird that you can inbreed...is exactly what I said...the gene pool has wiggle room or room to grow or breed without incident...that is called a wider gene pool....
I know that guys have bred for years way before pirates and ear rings.....but just because some lofts get away with it does not mean they did not introduce a different bird...all it takes is ONE bird to shake the genes up...and not a total outcross...but just a different branch off your family tree....just enough to open it up for many years of breeding...it could be luck...just selecting the right birds.....but Fact and Truth is you cant do it forever...you CAN line breed for a LONG LONG time...but inbreeding generation after generation will hit a wall...its not if...its when.....
We also have to remember that we are doing word of mouth with fanciers....Most say that they have NEVER introduced an outcross...and when I say outcross....it can be as simple as an old stock cock a fancier let borrow 5 years prior.....and decided to shoot the old bird back into his stock..then he produces a great bird out of the old stock cock and that bird gets put on a bunch of his stuff...now...that one bird he produced....I am sure is genentically a little different since the 5 years he had the old cock...so just that old cock opened up the door to continue to inbreed and line breed for another 10 years....when you are balancing on the fine line of keeping the good and bad genes even...it does not take much to throw you over the edge...and it does not take much to right you again...but what I am trying to say...is even though a fancier says they have never outcrossed...does not mean they have not brought in some old stuff they had....or even just had the right breeding through pairs to open it up...and the fact that a fancier may breed pigeons for 20 years...and may thing that one bird in his stock loft that was out of his stuff and one buddies bird...is not enough to say he outcrossed...get my point...we also have to remember the we are breeding from numerous pairs of birds...and may not notice the birds that are starting the cycle....I also know of fancier that have said on this FORUM THAT THEY HAVE NEVER crossed anything else in....but then you find out later that is not true..they borrowed XYZ bird from XYZ person and the XYZ bird produced a good stock bird..and that XYZ bird was 3/4 his stuff...but that little 1/4 is enough to make it all good and not affect your overall family....just one set of eggs out of 20 years can open er back up enough to continue..but not enough to mess up years of work....remember though I am not talking about blowing open the gene pool by any means..I am talking about putting your finger in the hole to plug the little leak.......I hope I am explaining what I am thinking..this is a subject I have a hard time putting on paper.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2009 10:19 PM
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Scott
2666 posts
Dec 03, 2009
12:03 AM
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And this is the key to the whole debate here.
("Well I think inbreeding is easier when your dealing with animals that have a short generation interval")
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Pinwheel
30 posts
Dec 03, 2009
5:35 AM
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Generation intervals:
Beef Cow : without being proven ~ 2 years
proving the bull ~ 5-6 years
Horse: racing: Proven: excess of 10 years
Pigeon: minimum 6 months
to prove: minimum 1 year depending(whatever your criteria, i.e. before the hawk gets it)
Mice: 3 month(fair size litter, often)
Oh and litter size is big too. If pigeons produced a clutch of 10 babies at a time, you sure could improve inbreeding and get rid of deleterious traits a lot quicker. And still have room with healthy normals etc. But your stuck with 2 or 1 at a time, and then have to wait quite a while to see if it fits normal -> both anatomically, mentally etc.
Winwwardroller: How did that guy ever make out with the homers????
Race horses arent getting any faster so Ive learned( and there is actual math and equations to figure this all out)due to the generation interval is soo long and, the use of a few stallions to continue the breed standard(to mention a few). I feel it really depends on the purpose of the animal and how it tolerates inbreeding. Same with dairy cattle, starting to get too inbred(having problems with fertility and dead calves). Heterozygous advantage is where it is at with putting beef on the bovine. Where are roller pigeons, and pigeons in general fit? Whatever makes you enjoy yourself probably .....its a hobby... So have fun!
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2009 5:46 AM
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winwardrollers
344 posts
Dec 03, 2009
8:23 AM
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The homer guy spent $40,000 on the cock bird built and 1200 and 900 square ft lofts brick fronts has it so you can drive a skidster under the loft to clean them out.
I tried to look homer competition and was not successful..so I ran into a homer guy that would be flying against him and all he wanted to do is badmouth the guy...and you know there is two sides to that story. Financial the guy was commited and was mass producing birds from the cock...This is may guess he is on the same ship as Pirate Paul and it is sinking..lol
Truthfully there is a lot of luck involved in breeding...you take the.. given's that are easily visable...and work with them.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2009 8:25 AM
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winwardrollers
345 posts
Dec 03, 2009
10:59 AM
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Scott
I think that is what lot of us enjoy about the hobby is that when you breed pigeons ,you are dealing with short generation intervals..you can see your results in a relatively short time.. make some adjustments..retry..and the cost is minimal.
bwinward
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