Sound Rollers
141 posts
Dec 12, 2009
12:31 PM
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These will be my stock birds.
Ash Red Grizzle Cock.
Blue Check White Flights White Beard Cock
Black Hen
Recessive Red Hen
John
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 5:42 AM
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toughrollers
309 posts
Dec 12, 2009
1:27 PM
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nice looking birds,goodluck.
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cr250
303 posts
Dec 12, 2009
1:56 PM
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Nice birds. Did you just get them from Norm?
Brian
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XtraDeepRoller
66 posts
Dec 12, 2009
2:20 PM
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John,
Nice birds.
That top bird is an Ash Red Grizzle, not a Red Mottle.
X
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3802 posts
Dec 12, 2009
3:27 PM
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Hi Dave
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2905 posts
Dec 12, 2009
4:31 PM
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looking good
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Sound Rollers
142 posts
Dec 12, 2009
5:03 PM
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Brian, that is corrected I got them from Norm Reed.
X, thanks for the correction. What would a Red Mottle look like?
John
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XtraDeepRoller
67 posts
Dec 12, 2009
6:06 PM
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Here are 2 pictures of red mottles:
X
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Sound Rollers
143 posts
Dec 12, 2009
6:15 PM
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I see, nice looking birds.
John
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
628 posts
Dec 12, 2009
7:27 PM
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Dave.... I mean X,You are wrong,Your bird is a Red Spangle. Just like MRS 25 # 521 Crystal Palace Cock.JDA
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 7:46 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
629 posts
Dec 12, 2009
7:32 PM
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If you want to see mottle,look on page 92 Black Mottle Hen not breed by Pensom.Page 92 of William H. Pensom,s book The Bermingham Roller Pigeon.JDA
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2009 10:08 AM
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
197 posts
Dec 14, 2009
11:26 AM
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John nice looking birds let us hope they produce some great spinners,and buy the way it's nice to see some poop spots it that nice new loft of yours.Good Luck Dennis
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Scott
2690 posts
Dec 14, 2009
12:06 PM
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Joe, 521 was a Rec. Red mottle , although some most certainly do refer to Rec. Red mottles as spangle while the english refer to it as Rose Wing.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 12:09 PM
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Rocky Lofts
136 posts
Dec 14, 2009
1:27 PM
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hey mr x, one of your red mottles looks like a modena.x roller
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3947 posts
Dec 14, 2009
3:28 PM
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Short legged ain't it Rocky?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Rocky Lofts
137 posts
Dec 14, 2009
3:36 PM
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hi nick, how are you? yes it sure has. i wonder if it rolls forward or backwards.lol
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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Rocky Lofts
138 posts
Dec 14, 2009
3:38 PM
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sound rollers, you have some nice birds ther buddy, good luck.
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 3:39 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
632 posts
Dec 14, 2009
4:58 PM
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Scott.... Cover MRS 25 #521 Pensom,s Old Cryxtal Palace Champion Red Spangled Cock.MRS is (Midland Roller Society)Bred By Pensom from a pair of Joe Thompson birds. Pensom said that Joe Thompson, Of Harborne, Birmingham England, was a life long fancier and noted for his two old pair. A Dun Bald cock a Blue check Badge hen. A Cream Badge hen and a magificent Red Spangle Saddle cock.It was a pair of these famous pigeons that (produced my) (Old Red Spangled Cock).MRS 25 # 521 was Bull Eyed and the first bull eyed bird to win the Crystal Palace Show also the first Birmingham Roller to win this show. Gene Giegoldt has this cock well documented. (Red Spangled).Scott I will always go with Bill Pensom,s word. God Bless JDA
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 5:08 PM
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Scott
2694 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:45 PM
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Joe, I'm pretty basic on my genetic terms also, The fact is if someone calls a bird a Spangle I certainly know what they are refering too, so I guess that is all that matters.
I'm curious though what they considered a cream badge ? delute or a light colored mealy? They tended to call birds at face value. Such as oddsides being called barless as an example , where in reality a true barless is a mutt cross, you get my drift.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 7:48 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
633 posts
Dec 14, 2009
7:19 PM
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Scott...In reality that was Bill Pensom talking about his bird of fame 521. Bill Pensom and even Bill Patrick call a bird a Spangle and they did and I do.JDA
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Scott
2696 posts
Dec 14, 2009
7:51 PM
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Sooo, does that mean you want them twizling also ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
634 posts
Dec 14, 2009
7:55 PM
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Scott....Another thing about a mottle,Mottle marked birds have no white flights. Spangled always do.JDA
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Scott
2698 posts
Dec 14, 2009
8:00 PM
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That is the first I heard that (not that it means anything) But the fact remains they are still Rec/Red , and also showing grizzle if I remember right, either way, Spangle will certainly work.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 8:02 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
637 posts
Dec 14, 2009
8:45 PM
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Scott...A Spread is probable showing in your dark check pigeons. Spread a wing and look for a white grizzle or a bronzing near the quell of the flight feathers and you will see that your birds carry the gene.(Twizling),Is that your word?JDA
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JMUrbon
785 posts
Dec 14, 2009
9:51 PM
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Hard to determine at this point weather the bird is mottle or not. Mottle and spangle are the same and moult in the white were as a splash has the white prior to moulting. This is how they have always been explained to me anyway. However the top bird is indeed a grizzle.Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2009 9:51 PM
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JMUrbon
787 posts
Dec 14, 2009
10:18 PM
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I remember the bird Joe but this is the first I heard of a spangle having W/F and a mottle not having W/F. Not that I am doubting it but I just havn't heard it. I get alot of mottles in my birds and although they never have all white flights but I have had them with a single white flight but mostly white in the coverts and the tail. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
639 posts
Dec 14, 2009
10:38 PM
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Joe...Look at your copy of Bill Pensom,s book Pg 73 dark black mottle not bread by Pensom.pg 49 prc 55 #5135 black grizzle neck w/w.pg19 red spangled hen. pg 31 recessive red whitesidebeard hen by Pensom.pg 92 black mottle hen.Cover pensom,s old crystal palace cock mrs 25 3521 red spangle. I have band numbers for most of the birds in Bill,s book.JDA
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JMUrbon
790 posts
Dec 14, 2009
10:45 PM
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What am I looking for Joe.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sound Rollers
147 posts
Dec 15, 2009
7:14 AM
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Joe, I agree with you on the “Red Spangles” I looked up the definitions for the words we use in this hobby and have found the following;
SPANGLE
–noun
1. a small, thin, often circular piece of glittering metal or other material, used esp. for decorating garments.
2. any small, bright drop, object, spot, or the like.
–verb (used with object)
3. to decorate with spangles.
4. to sprinkle or stud with small, bright pieces, objects, spots, etc.
–verb (used without object)
5. to glitter with or like spangles.
Grizzle
–verb (used without object), verb (used with object)
1. to make or become gray or partly gray.
–adjective
2. gray; grayish; devoid of hue.
–noun
3. gray or partly gray hair.
4. a gray wig.
Mottle
–verb (used with object)
1. to mark or diversify with spots or blotches of a different color or shade.
–noun
2. a diversifying spot or blotch of color.
3. mottled coloring or pattern.
Dave's birds could be called; Red with white shiny spots but Spangle is a better choice.
With this said I'm changing the description of the first bird to Recessive Red Mottle Cock no reason to use the word GRIZZLE here there is no gray on this bird.
My birds will be described as I see it, the basic color first i.e. red, black, blue, etc. followed by the color variation, Spangle, Mottle, Grizzle as defined in Webster and I'm willing to bet that the Cream Badge was a Yellow colored bird.
P.S. nothing found for twizle, lol.
Crystal Palace Red Spangle Cock #521
John
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JMUrbon
791 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:05 AM
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sound, Grizzle doesnt refer to grey or any other color for that matter. The grizzle on that bird is apparent by the way the white and red in the neck come together. If you look at the quills on the flights and coverts I bet you will see a mixture of white and red mixed together.That is were the grizzle comes into play. A mottle will show a more definitive line between the base color be it black or red and the white feathers. There will be no white on the red feathers and no red on the white feathers. Joe
PS. John you can call that bird anything you like afterall it is your bird and I might add it is a good looking bird at that. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 8:07 AM
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Sound Rollers
148 posts
Dec 15, 2009
9:06 AM
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Joe, with all do respect, are you saying that a Mottle and a Spangle are one in the same? In Pensom's book they're used separately.
The American Heritage College dictionary:
"-Grizzled 1.Streak with or partly gray. 2. Having fur or hair streaked or tipped with gray".
"-Grizzly 1.Grayish or flecked with gray"
Or is it by observation that fanciers use the word Grizzled as a look instead of of a color as you stated. That being said makes the describing of rollers is clear as mud and why color always opens a can of worms.
Circa 1814 The STAR SPANGLED BANNER - White stars (bright pieces,) on a Navy Blue background.
Grizzled old dinosaur - used to describe someone old and gray.
Do you think off the cuff this is how the fanciers of old described their birds almost as a slang, because its not a type, witch opens another can of worms on true Birmingham Rollers i.e. the color issue.
John
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JMUrbon
794 posts
Dec 15, 2009
4:29 PM
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John you can take the dictionary term and throw them out the window. They mean nothing when it comes to pigeon getetics and colors. Grizle will have white and some other color on the same feather. Could be gray or red or blue but it will be 2 colors. A tort grizzle will have 3 colors on one feather. To answer you question, Yes that is one of the reasons the color issue is so complex. Most including myself choose not to worry about the color of the bird other than to describe it on the breeding records. I am by no means no color enthusiast these are just color factors that have been explained to me over the last 30 years. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sound Rollers
150 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:15 PM
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Joe, so you you think the top bird is a Grizzle?
John
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JMUrbon
799 posts
Dec 16, 2009
7:38 PM
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Absolutely. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sound Rollers
152 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:06 AM
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Made the change Joe.
John
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Dave Szab
3 posts
Jan 01, 2010
7:40 PM
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JDA,
Both of those birds that I posted above are mottles. I have copied an old post that I saved from the late Doug Brown, who knew everything about the color factors in rollers.
Dave
" First a Mottle is a bird that is mostly a color with white. There is
not a frostieness in the feathers. Now you can have both on the same bird.
You can have a mottle that is grizzle and this makes a whole new light on the
subject.
When you have a bird that mostly white and has some color it is called
Spangle. Now I know many of you have your own way of talking about them.
But what I have said is what most of the people in pigeondom call them. I am
just using these names because the majority of the people in the world would
know what you are talking about if you used them.
Doug Brown"
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Sound Rollers
167 posts
Jan 02, 2010
5:32 AM
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Dave, I believe Mr. Pensom would have called those birds "Spangles" as illustrated in his book.
John
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Grandadde11
1 post
Jan 04, 2010
6:48 AM
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Ok,I am a new member of this site. going to be brave.
First let me say I am not posting this statement for all the meat eaters out here.No back biting, or teath knawing welcome.
I have raised pigeons for over 40 years. Small breaks in those years. The discosion on what the terms on color has got my attention All of the above mentiond color paterens are of grizzle. each would define the variations of grizzle. that being said well done. for those who are new to the hobby. A badge bird is one with white flights and solid ,or patteren color on the badge of the wing. all we have in this world is our family. May it be persanol, hobby, or sport. love is where the heart is. Glen
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rolleronnie
60 posts
Jan 15, 2010
7:03 PM
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Mottle? Spangle? WHO THE BLOODY HELL CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Promoting The Birmingham Roller
The Greatest Aerial Acrobat!
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darkhorse09
151 posts
Jan 16, 2010
3:44 AM
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Nice rollers
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Sound Rollers
181 posts
Jan 16, 2010
5:27 AM
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Thanks darkhorse.
John
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polarbear
116 posts
Jun 22, 2010
11:26 PM
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John, how are these Reeds working out for you?
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Sound Rollers
351 posts
Jun 23, 2010
10:58 AM
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Hey polarbear, not so good so far, breeding has been a nightmare; eggs not hatching, infertile eggs, squabs dieing. I have some rethinking to do with these birds.
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polarbear
118 posts
Jun 23, 2010
11:05 AM
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John, i have had some of the same problems with my reeds. What i did was focus on the better breeders from him, and gave the poor quality parents a good mate that fed young previousily, and was better overall parents.
This year i mated all the originals back up and they were excellent parents. I guess a change in mates for a year really helped out. So far i have raised 120 young from my Reed birds.
Good luck, I hope they get better for you.
Mike
Last Edited by on Jun 23, 2010 1:16 PM
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fresnobirdman
677 posts
Jun 23, 2010
11:29 AM
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is norm reed still into birds?
-fou
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