nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3948 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:39 PM
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Do we judge the birds in both competitions the same? Why would you hold the birds in the 11 Bird competition to a different performance standard then you would hold the birds in 20 Bird competition? Where does it say you should do that in the rules?
It is my belief that all birds in the NBRC 20 and 11 Bird competition be held to the same standard. The only real difference is that less than quarter breaks can score.
The next person that tells me that the 11 Bird kits are held against a tighter standard and give me no supporting rules owes me a buck.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
537 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:43 PM
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The only higher standard that I can see, goes to the 20 bird team, You have to have 5 break together, that is harder, The quality of the birds should be the same.
JMO
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RT Williams
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Scott
2695 posts
Dec 14, 2009
6:48 PM
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Nick, the concept of the 11 bird fly was/is to show case our best.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3949 posts
Dec 14, 2009
9:36 PM
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Scott, why wasn't that written into the rules?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2699 posts
Dec 14, 2009
9:44 PM
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Where in the rules does it say different Nick ?
These are completly two different flys
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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bman
738 posts
Dec 15, 2009
4:30 AM
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Scott, I have a question. Why do rarely see a bigger seperation in the Q & D mutipliers. It is always 1.2/1.3 or 1.4/1.5. You never see a 1.0 & 1.4.
Are there no kits that have less quality but good depth? Or vice versa?----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2209 posts
Dec 15, 2009
5:40 AM
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Nick
I think the Fly Rules support Scott's opinion, though I agree with you, it should be more clearly stated as such. In reality, the opinions of the flyers vary, depending on the discussion at hand. Some say that the quality of the performance of the birds should be equal in both of the flys. Some say that the 11-bird performance should be held to a higher standard....key words...SHOULD BE. Is that just the opinions held by influential flyers, or is this clearly spelled out in the rules? It gets very difficult when we have to keep going back to the guys that came up with the rules to begin with, for their interpretation of what was intended. Go read them again and tell me what you think. The 11 bird rules are very specific on the standard for acceptable performance, much more specific than the 20 bird. In fact, the 20-bird does not even include a Judging Standard and leaves it completely up to the judge. That's one of the reasons why the flyers in the Southeast has always favored the 11-bird fly; the other being that it is simply more feasible for the human eye to detect quality performance with fewer birds in the air. How many birds do we put in the air when we are trying to critically evaluate their performance? 3? 4? 5? 7? I have heard all of the above. I rarely hear a veteran flyer say that he evaluates his youngbirds, for promotion to a comp team, by flying them 20 at a time.....for obvious reasons. Good topic for discussion, Nick.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 5:42 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3951 posts
Dec 15, 2009
5:48 AM
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Scott, Just mail me the dollar(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2210 posts
Dec 15, 2009
5:54 AM
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Think about it....If you are the judge.....in the 20 bird fly, many times the first thing a judge does is "COUNT" the birds in a break, or the ones that don't break, or take a snapshot impression of numbers, THEN SECONDLY try to evaluate the spin to see if birds are coming out the wrong way or whether any wing-switching is identifiable and whether it meets the minimum standard, and beginning to assign D&Q multipliers.
In the 11 bird fly, many times the first thing a judge does is "EVALUATE" quality of the spin he sees, counting the ones he likes afterward, and there are NO D&Q multipliers given! Often times a minimum D&Q 20 bird kit would NOT even score in a properly judged 11 bird fly.
One fly is to showcase concert performance where aveage spinners qualify....and the dominate opinion is that the other is to showcase ABOVE AVERAGE spinners without the necessity of unison breaks. But I agree, Nick. The Fly Rules need to say that, specifically.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 5:56 AM
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3757
1335 posts
Dec 15, 2009
6:25 AM
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Cliff - I have a two part question for you. The first one is from what you say the 11 bird fly is actually more critical on the quality (based on the rules) than the 20 bird?
Also, when and who votes on updating the current rules or adding changes to them (I am curious)
Thanks
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 6:25 AM
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bman
739 posts
Dec 15, 2009
6:50 AM
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Hey Doc,how are you doing?
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2211 posts
Dec 15, 2009
7:11 AM
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Laron (3757)
First question.... Yes, in my opinion and in my understanding of the intention of the rules.
Second question...Anyone can recommend changes to the President. It is up to the NBRC president to decide on the priority of the issues and questions to be taken up as business during his term of office. Once the EC discusses each topic given to them, then the NBRC's RD's and officers (the EC) vote and a simple majority wins. If it is a general policy regarding the fly, it stands. If it is a subject that pertains to the Fly Rules, then the EC's majority decision is voted on by the NBRC flyers and either ratified or turned down. Hope this helps.
Cliff
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Scott
2700 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:06 AM
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Cliff, in reality the quality in the 20 bird is much easier to guage quality wise, your focus is on the entire break and it is all there. A child could just count pigeons if that was all there was to it.
With the 11 bird, if they are rolling individualy you have to judge per quality from start to finish, the problem is when your focus goes to that individule. And then when others go once you have focused in on one you miss the others becuase you can't focus in on more than one thing at once.
The 11 bird teams that had actual breaks where you are able to put your focus on all had a huge advantage in both numbers and birds that could be scored on their quality.
In the 20 bird (or 11 bird) only poor judges just count the birds, that would be too easy, you must seperate the Wheat from the chaff (good from the bad)
Now with all of this said, if the judge just counted with no quality standard then it all counts and none of what I wrote above applies. I am not that kind of judge nor do I use those type in my own region for the pre-lems.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 8:07 AM
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Scott
2701 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:12 AM
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LaRon, the 11 bird used to have a good written standard , no more as people were complaining about it (the standard) being too high.
The way it is now leaves it much broader where you can score axel wing culls if the judge desires , or you can do it the way I did where I used a critical standard.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 8:22 AM
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3757
1336 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:38 AM
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Ron - OK and I have not forgotten. We recently had a death in the family. A close cousin died at 40 with a brain Aneurism.
Cliff - Thanks for the information.
Scott - That is exactly what is happening to some degree with the 30 point system. It is tough and guys say they do not want to fly. Now, some of the members are saying that the 30 point system is to rigid. It was the same in the SBRC. You always had some complaining. One guys got so made a few years back and quit. I feel rigid keeps the quality high but that is just my belief.
Thanks all
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 8:40 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2212 posts
Dec 15, 2009
9:08 AM
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Scott
In "MY" opinion, the D&Q multipliers are averages of every bird that performed to the judges minimum standard and above, in each break of 5 or more birds. TO ME, that is "LESS COMPLICATED" than how the 11 bird fly is judged. By flying fewer birds in the 11, the complex issues involved with scoring should even out. But as you stated before, each kit is different and the judging difficulty changes from kit to kit.
"BOTH" the 20 and the 11 are difficult but in different ways. You chose to judge the 11 bird fly with a higher minimum standard than the 20. I believe you did the right thing.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2213 posts
Dec 15, 2009
9:18 AM
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Scott
You brought up another good point....judges that "judge culls." Well, the written rules are the same for every judge to read, the "SUBJECTIVITY" of the rules allows for each judge to do his best, to evaluate each kit he observes, and to not score what doesn't meet his personal standards. I will tell you that NO JUDGE believes he is scoring culls. Can we agree that in YOUR opinion, you would not score rollers as other judges might do?
A question:
What is the first priority in looking at a performing roller?
Is it velocity, RPS or is it wing positions? Does a slow H type roller trump a faster X type roller? I would suggest that it is different for different judges.
The definition of a roller makes reference to its ability to turn over backwards with inconceivable rapidity.Which quality to we value over all others, velocity or wing positions? Do we all have to agree or is the subjectivity so great that we cannot accept another's opinion? Must we degrade another judge's opinions to justify our own?
What sets a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER apart from other performing breeds? Depth and velocity?
The 11 bird standard was voted on and a majority of the NBRC RD's accepted the current wording. Then the NBRC flyers voted to ALSO accept that wording. Did you vote? If so, did you vote to also accept the changes approved by the RD's? (I am sure you wouldn't vote yes and not read and understand what you voted on!) Yet, how many times have you stated that the Integrity rule gives the judge the right to judge how he pleases?
The same integrity rule holds true for BOTH THE 20 and the 11.
Cliff
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Scott
2702 posts
Dec 15, 2009
10:28 AM
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LaRon, several things happen when you put points and a judge (or judges) into the game.... first it puts guys under your birds critiquing them , this it itself opens up a can of worms .... then when you use a real quality standard that is where the problems begin for some.. they want to point fingers at everything except the birds and themselfs.
One thing that I learned quit a while ago was to explain what I was judging (or not) and why... this goes a long,long way , some may not agree with it but at least they know why you did what you did.
(Scott - That is exactly what is happening to some degree with the 30 point system. It is tough and guys say they do not want to fly. Now, some of the members are saying that the 30 point system is to rigid. It was the same in the SBRC. You always had some complaining. One guys got so made a few years back and quit. I feel rigid keeps the quality high but that is just my belief )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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3757
1337 posts
Dec 15, 2009
11:59 AM
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Scott - I have to agree with you as that is something I do when I judge but even then you still have people who disagree. I remember when I won the money fly and Arnold Jackson and Gary Morris explained why the bird won a guy got irate and kept saying his bird was better even though he only scored 9 out of 30. My old mentor once told me some will never see a good bird. You can talk until you are blue in the face and they see it in front of them and they will not believe. There was a guy who was raising people from the dead, healing them right in front of their faces and they still called him a quack. I get your point but it does not always work :)
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 12:04 PM
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wishiwon2
252 posts
Dec 17, 2009
10:47 PM
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Nick,
I believe there are different standards prescribed by the rules for each competition.
The 20 bird competition allows for a range of scoring ... everything from "adequate" to "phenomenal". Those terms are subjective and vary judge by judge;
From the NBRC website - "The judge shall estimate and record the number of birds rolling adequately in unison for each break involving 5 or more ... Next the raw score shall be multiplied by a quality factor of 1.0 for "adequate” to 2.0 for "truly phenomenal" based upon the judges overall impression of the average quality exhibited in all of the turns scored."
The 11-bird competition is more specific in its description of what should be scored.
NBRC website - "Judging Standards
The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit."
This description is NOT written as part of the 20-bird rules, only the 11-bird. All birds scored in the 11 bird fly must meet the above minimum standard, any birds rolling which are better than that standard, dont recieve any added merit except in cases where a bird is awarded an extra point for a roll the exhibits "exceptional speed" NBRC website - "Bonus Points: Exceptional speed = 1 point"
In my opinion, quality is not only a measure of speed. Therefore, it is a somewhat different standard based on different merits. 11 bird rules prescibe a minimum standard and the only added merit is for speed and depth. I would like to see the minimum performance description from the 11 bird rules added to the 20 bird rules, with a style description included. Then the standard would be more the same in rule. The application of such would continue to differ, but the rules would be the same. I do believe the 11 bird teams are held to a higher performance standard to be scoreable.
Although the section under 'integrity' reads the same for both, "The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers!", the added description in the 11 bird rules creates a different standard.
Do I get a dollar?
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 10:59 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3957 posts
Dec 18, 2009
8:00 PM
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Jon, You get the dollar.
The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit."
Shouldn't this apply to both events?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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donnie james
840 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:14 PM
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hay nick when ever i was judging my local fly we had the 11 bird fly and i would judge them the same as the 20 bird fly but i know i had 9 less birds to deal will and maybe one of these i'll well judge a 20 bird........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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fhtfire
2345 posts
Dec 19, 2009
5:18 PM
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Cliff,
You said that you do not know of any fliers that evaluate there birds for promotion in a 20 bird team...I do....I dont break them down into little groups...I guess I stick to my old school thinking...you practice how you play...I want to see my bird performance while in a full squadron or close to it....Now if I cant tell a bird apart...I may drop a number but I really dont have to do that either..Scott C...showed me how to tell a bird is rolling by looking at certain feathers..and so far his advice as been right on the money...but I dont break them up in little groups...I need to see how they act in roll with ALL the big boys in the team.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2230 posts
Dec 19, 2009
6:35 PM
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Paul,
For sure......we need to see how they act in roll with the big boys in the team, as you said. Sure, most guys fly young birds in large kits as they are learning to roll. But I think most distinguish the quality of the birds that are selected for the comp team either because his performance sets him apart from other lesser-performing young birds, or by flying them in small groups (at some point) to confirm which birds are doing it the best. I have several kits of young 20-bird teams and there are a lot of birds with all kinds of ranges of performance in them. And the problem is that there are a lot of similar-looking birds. I don't know how you can be sure flying them only in large groups like that! My hat's off to you bro.' Yes, I like to fly my kits as full kits so I can evaluate the kit sensitivity, just as you but (for me) to really evaluate the quality of the roll, I fly smaller kits. Once I am positive on the quality of the roll and the character of the bird, then I build my kits and fly then as full kits either 20 or as 11.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 8:06 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2231 posts
Dec 19, 2009
7:55 PM
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Nick
If the NBRC EC gets a chance to make a few changes to the fly rules, I hope you suggest that idea that the 20 bird rules should include the 11 bird standards, for the sake of completeness, so we don't have to make assumptions about the matter.
But I still am of the "opinion" that the 11 bird fly should be held to a higher minimum quality standard than the 20 bird fly, and that the Fly Rules should say so.
I also think the 10 foot minimum depth standard could be easily adjusted to read that: The judge shall not score any bird(s) that fail to meet his most accurate estimate of 10 feet. I don't think there is a better way to say it. But we should make an effort to remove the word "suggested." If you got a better idea, I sure want to hear it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 7:55 PM
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Scott
2709 posts
Dec 20, 2009
9:01 AM
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If I have a good one showing up in a youngbird team it doesn't take long to ID it, there are many little details that seperate these birds even if they are all blue based, of coarse clipping tails here and there are part of the tools, along with little tell tale signs.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2347 posts
Dec 20, 2009
12:20 PM
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Scott is so right. WHen a youngbird that is promotion worthy...it sticks out like a sore thumb and to me is easy to find that bird...it can be as easy as a clip on the tail.
Even in other teams..not just a youngbird team...but a C team or even the promotion from B to A team....that potential A team bird even then with an active team will be easy to fine. If you have set you standards...and not let any bird into the A team..that bird will have to be a step above the A team...in my birds..usually the difference from B to A is a little deeper and faster...and more active...so that bird too will stick out like a sore thumb. I have yet to build a team by flying in small groups....and the promotion process has been pretty easy...all the birds usually dont come in at the same time either...so that too makes it easier....THere has been no need to fly small groups to assemble a team or even evaluate individual bird..the individual birds will stand out if they are good and the ones that are soo soo will catch your attention...but to notice these things..you have to never have your eyes leave the kit during comp training....I guess I have trained myself to look at certain things...
I agree with Scott...but to me flying in small groups is just another tool..if you need the tool pull it out.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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harrison
1295 posts
Dec 20, 2009
1:31 PM
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I found last year when getting my birds ready for promotion or demotion to another kit that when I messd around breaking the 20 bird kit down to 2 teams of 10 that the birds wasnt performing as good as when a 20 bird team.
It doesnt take long before you can reakonise what needs moving up or down in quality.
But I must also say we all have our oun ways of doing what we do and some work better for others.
BEST WISHIS GUYS.
Harrison
H.K.R ROLLER LOFT HULL UK
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2232 posts
Dec 20, 2009
6:02 PM
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Paul,
Whatever method you use in order to pick out the good ones for the comp kit, I am all for it! I guess my eyes are not as good as some folks, 'cause I think that when men want to really focus on what one bird in particular is doing with regard to wing position, depth, frequency, and speed they fly smaller kits, like many programs that are trying to evaluate a single bird, i.e., the certified spinner program, etc. It is just easier for me to analyze a single bird's performance when there is less comotion in the background to distract my attention. Once I am sure, then I move it to a standard-sized kits. I think it must be the "dentist" in me that focuses on the small things! LOL!
Cliff
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Scott
2710 posts
Dec 20, 2009
8:42 PM
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Cliff, I just don't get what I'm looking for in great numbers, they tend to stand out with me.
Now my A team is a different story when it comes to re-evaluating ... splitting them up hel;ps out... or I just toss what I'm evauating in the YB team... a top old birds will stand far and above the best of youngbirds with few exceptions.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2235 posts
Dec 21, 2009
6:42 AM
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Scott,
Hehehe. Yeah, I do that sometimes, too. The contrast between the old bird and the youngsters makes it much easier to critically observe his performance, than when a half dozen (or more) other birds are breaking with him and they all look similar!
Cliff
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Flipmode
390 posts
Dec 24, 2009
1:22 PM
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Nick said.
"Jon, You get the dollar.
The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit."
Shouldn't this apply to both events?"
I think the 11-bird fly is to show off your best "individual" superstars. You get a chance to really zoom in on a bird and evaluate it from start to finish. The 20 bird fly is a "teamwork" fly. You count the breaking birds first and then give an overall score on quality. 1.0-2.0. Unless you have 10 eyeballs that move independently like a chameleon lizard, how can you evaluate each birds individual performance if 20 birds break together and only go 10ft? You got 1 second to zoom in on 20 different birds using 2 eyeballs.... It cant be done.
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Scott
2729 posts
Dec 24, 2009
1:43 PM
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Mike.. you are right..it can't be done.. that is why i never zoom (focus)in on ind. birds..the focus is on the entire break.. the 11 bird became a real delima for me with some kits due to this when they were rolling staggerd individualy more than one at a time.
Now when they broke as a untit I could much easily guage the quality.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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