Pinwheel
91 posts
Dec 16, 2009
5:36 PM
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I was reading a study that tested the cross of parlor rollers with flying types rollers. The F1 were divided equally into flying and ground performers exhibiting a lesser degree of affected-ness than the parents. I had heard that if you mate parlors with flying type that you would get deep rollers(or roll downs). Not to say there was any improved quality behind it. According to the paper the F1 performance was just a few flips in a series ,rather than a continuous spin for a distance(as exhibited by the BR and PR parentals). Anyone know of any one that has done that, and how the offspring behaved. This was not done by the roller community, just a genetic study.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 6:57 PM
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donnie james
830 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:14 PM
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hay penwheel
i never heard of that or thought of it it sound like a mass up deal because you ain't helping the either birds out.................
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Jerry Allen
GOLD MEMBER
387 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:48 PM
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Pinwheel,
Go to the bottom of home page, click on site search,
type in; crossing parlor rollers, pick # 3, it has a lot of
discussion on this subject.
Most will agree, that nothing good will ever come from
this cross or any other cross with a Birmingham.
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Pinwheel
94 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:50 PM
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OK thanks Jerry. I never even thought to look it up, wouldnt think it would be on here. I can not recall where I had heard that statement. I think the idea was, since parlor rolls have such a propensity and tenacity for rolling, as they cant even get off the ground once the condition sets, that when mated with a flyer it produced a flyer that still maintained that high degree of rolling, thus creating a deeper roller. But the genetics do not work out that way.
Interesting what people have said in that thread, about getting mad, crazy tumblers. Very peculiar. I wonder why that study found that the performance was no where near that of the parents, meaning, that they were affected less not more. Maybe there are new people since that post that might shed some light.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 6:56 PM
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markw
31 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:41 AM
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This is actually a color project going on with Parlors.Years ago people started crossed a rolldown Blue Bar Flying roller with a Parlor Roller for the color.
I have birds from this line and last year had a pair produce a 282'(longest ever for a "Bar line" Parlor and also a 177'.If I remember right they both came out of the 4th round from one pair.The others rounds were junk as in the either flew very poorly and did a few flips or they wouldn't fly but never locked in and rolled.
Most of my Barred Parlors pedigrees don't even have the Flying Rollers on it and they go back to the great grandparents.
The are VERY frustrating to work with and this year only had one bird certify at 71' so I am going to breed once again other colored Parlors back into them and try to get more roll into them.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3954 posts
Dec 17, 2009
2:05 AM
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This cross will give you either a low value Parlor or a low value Birmingham. You will be faced with about 3 to 5 years of culls to achieve either a high value Parlor or a high value Birmingham depending which breed you use to cross back into this mongrel. The production of high value of either type bird will be about 20% after that. If you want to spend the time and energy and all that culling, then knock yourself out. It is your feed bill so you can do anything you want to these birds.................right? The integrity of the breeds are in your hands. Do whatever you want; there is no fines and no jail time to be served............
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 2:23 AM
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Sound Rollers
151 posts
Dec 17, 2009
5:44 AM
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I think once you mix the two you'll have a mutt and nothing more. You can do like the pet shops and name the mutts, say Parlorham Roller, but you'll never have a true Birmingham or a Parlor roller, just like you can't get a Beagle out of a puggle.
John
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Pinwheel
96 posts
Dec 17, 2009
5:51 AM
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I do not want to partake in any of it. I was hoping more people would say that you would get a low quality bird like the study said and what nick said. Not some mad crazy tumbler, which I am still not sure what that looks like or behaves. but thanks for those mark, john, nick. Helpful
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 5:53 AM
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PAUL R.
130 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:32 AM
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Back in 1984 as a kid, around the neighborhood it was about who had the deepest spinner. Back then I had no knowledge of any clubs of any kind. But I did experiment with breeding a cream/yellow parlor with a 30 ft roller. The first round of babies were no good. They flew upto 8ft and just kept flipping, but wouldnt fly. On the second, I did get birds that actually flew and it took them about 6 months to come in. But the results that I was hoping to get were there. We called them: " Suicidals " They rolled from about 300 feet and sometimes, well they never stopped. But I didnt know best then. It was nice to have some deep ones !
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Pinwheel
100 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:44 AM
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Thanks Paul R. So is goes to say that there is a very variable amount of performance that can come from this. A prolonged maturation to the roll, but rolldowns. Or just flippers that did not fly well. Weird. Hopefully one day some one will sort that out as to what exactly can cause this
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 8:44 AM
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pigeon pete
451 posts
Dec 17, 2009
12:38 PM
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Pinwheel. we already know what caused it -- crossing two breeds together.
Read all the posts about the variability you get from crossing two strains of roller, how much worse would we expect it to be if we crossed different breeds.
If you want birminghams that roll on the ground pair frequent rolldowns bred from the same and you will eventualy breed birds unable to fly.
If you want deeper rollers breed from deeper rollers.
The parlour roller has a very low threshold to rolling stimulous, so even if your crosses may be able to fly to some extent, they are likely to be continuously rolling or tumbling.
All the variables you may get, are already present in the BR, e.g Over frequency, instability, lack of control etc.
If flying rollers had all gone short to the point of only tumbling, then a parlour cross could be tried in an attempt to re create the breed, but I can't see any other reason to want to try it.
Pete
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Pinwheel
104 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:03 PM
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Ill assume that we are speaking in generalities. I am not trying to cross anything. We know what caused it - crossing two strains of roller. Yes. I should be more clear. What causes any of this tumbling was what I was really getting at. Its genetic, yes. But that still doesnt tell us much. There is more then just one gene in play if we have all this variability. The lack of being able to pick one type of performance and hang on to it is a simple case of that. But on some level, understanding these various forms of tumbling and how they come about, is interesting to a certain mind(mine).
Ill stick with pure breeds then. So would you say you can prolong the flying time of a parlor roller before it can not fly anymore?
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 1:05 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
628 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:11 PM
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Pete,
you just live in the wrong country. many cross breeds here for color!! it improves the Birmingham roller don't you know? tongue in cheek. it's called breeding for roll first. LOL sorry the crossing breeds just makes my eyes bleed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KGB
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Pinwheel
105 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:29 PM
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Well good thing this post isnt talking about crossing breeds for the heck of it.
Just to establish mode of inheritance. Is that what everyone else thinkgs it about, cause thats what I was shooting for.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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pigeon pete
453 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:45 PM
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Pin whheel,
Now you are talking, that is the $64000 question that has been asked as long as we have had tumbling pigeons.
What makes them roll and why don#t they all roll the same, damn computer it;s got silver keys and I cvan hardly see the letters lol.
You have heard of genetic engineering, but genetics is not like engineering with specific design remits and fine tolerances. We can make something that is a virtual clone of the rest of the production line, but genetically things are so much more variable/
It;s not just the roll genes that show this variation. Take humans, we look similar and we have been developing for many more thousands of years than the roller, but you may be highly litterate, while I may be dyslexic. The genes for reading /writing may be the same, but the expression or the efficeincy of those genes have so much variation that we call one extreme expression of them Genius, and the other exteme, dyslexic.
It's nothing to do with intelligence. Some genius's are dyslexic. We are all on a sliding scale somewhere between the two because of the variation found in those particular genetic factors. The trick is to narrow that variation into a band that we find desirous. We use selective breeding and inbreeding to try and restrict the variation as much as we can.
Some will succeed more than others.
The roll is as complex as any other trait found in animals, and as stock breeders over the years have found you can't win them all.
All thouroubred horses are bred to race, but only a small percentage make the top, (obviously)but many either can't or don't want to run fast enough to put into training.
Pete
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speedball
557 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:52 PM
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ernie stratford's best roller had parlor roller bred into it. a strawberry cock. only ernie done that tester. hey pinwheel i once had a hen called the "pinwheel". named after the tiny pins sticking out the side of the donut!
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PAUL R.
131 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:54 PM
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Pigeon Pete & Mongrel 'Loft, Who's to say it would not work by crossing them? I tried it back then without knowing anything about breeding or genetics of any kind. And also by Mark Wilson , he has used a bluebar roller that he has crossed over several times & has been able to roll parlors of long distance. So does one trash the idea out? I'ts up to you.
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Pinwheel
106 posts
Dec 17, 2009
2:11 PM
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Well aint that something speedball. THats where the name comes from too, a hen.
Ok pigeon pete. Nice read. I feel the technology is good enough to put pieces of the puzzle together. Its still illusive, but I feel we can start pairing up our years of breeding with some scientific evidence.
BTW is it really worth that litte? lol 64,000! geez, that is not going to pay the bills. hahah
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 2:12 PM
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