Pinwheel
92 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:03 PM
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The only thing I can add to this is by looking at the poultry industry. Chickens are capable of laying one egg every 24 hours! That is an impressive feat when you really get down to it. THe only thing I know that diminishes is eggshell quality. As the hen lays eggs they gradually get larger over time. WHich is generally where you can get the different sized eggs at the store. THe jumbos are from older birds. I believe I have that correct. THe same amount of calcium is layed down for the eggshell throughout the whole entire egg laying life of the bird, yet the amount it has to cover gets larger, therefore, the eggshell gets thinner, yielding to poorer egg shell quality. As for the other factors, personally, I do not feel their quality diminishes to such a great extent if at all. Thats just a BS in Animal science talking with no industrial experience.
I do know that they have an egg break out station where they measure the albumin height to determine quality. SO now that I think about it, there may be some things that do diminish. Ill do some good ol researching to, because you got me thinkin
It might help your research to check into chicken research and then apply it to your birds. Pure scientific Pigeon research is few and far between in my experience
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 6:07 PM
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fhtfire
2332 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:05 PM
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Thom,
As long as the birds are getting good feed and lots of grit with oyster shells you should be fine...you can even add some Calcium...but you need vitamin D or the Calcium will not be absorbed...HENCE YOUR PELLETS...Pigeon Pellets have vitamin D.
Just remember...birds are made for laying....but if you start getting eggs that are CHALKY and not smooth...then they need calcium....The 10 day break between laying is just fine. The real reason you have the pair lay is because the hen will get irritated and may leave her mate or may just stop laying. If you fly open loft and you break a hens eggs a couple times..they will get frustrated and try and claim another box or they may just lay on the floor...there instinct tells them to find another spot. It also messes up the cycle...its more mental or instinct.
Now you have to be careful with PUMPING them...Hens only have so many eggs in them just like a human female. If you want a hen to be around in 10 years breeding....to breed back to the great great great great great grand kids....then you have to be careful with pumping...I know of one roller fancier and one racing fancier that only breeds 3 rounds of year out of each hen...not matter what...and they both have hens that are 12 plus years old breeding with nice white solid eggs....I had one hen dry up at the 10 year mark and one at the 6 year mark...the 6 year hen....was pumped before me...and I pumped her on my gosh...I must have got 20 eggs out of her in one year..>LOL...I put her back in the team after she dried up and a hawk ate her.
The egg shell will tell you what they need....but they should be fine...I like the main pairs to raise there third round.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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donnie james
829 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:10 PM
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hay thom,
i'm no expert on this subject and i think the hen have to put her 2 cent wroth in making the egg and i also think she will reproduce and egg other and over like she laid her 1 st 2 eggs
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1566 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:36 PM
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Pinwheel, I have researched poultry but the articles were about production and development. I was more addressing the possibility of diminishing the abilities of rollers by the practice of fostering. I am not qualified to even make a good guess. If in your research you can shed any light then it was a good question.
Paul, I am always looking for ways to improve. Did you notice, in hindsight, any difference in the young birds from that hen and the order in which they hatched? Were the young from the same cock?
Hey Donnie, You have forgotten more about rollers then I know! :) How are you feeling? Can you get out to the loft?
Thom
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Pinwheel
93 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:43 PM
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OK Thom, Well I sent you two articles, see if they are worth anything. If not, just delete them. And Ill look into fostering. That may be a bit more tricky. in your topic, I didnt see much about the fostering, just about egg quality. Sorry
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 6:45 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
640 posts
Dec 16, 2009
9:15 PM
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With pellets make sure you pull the grit and oyster shell,and you will have lost the runny and smelly droppings.JDA
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
538 posts
Dec 16, 2009
9:28 PM
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Interesting topic/question. Pinwheel will you send me the articles I would like to read them. rtwilliams68@yahoo.com . thanks
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RT Williams
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1567 posts
Dec 17, 2009
4:55 AM
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Pinwheel, Thank you but I did not receive the articles. Would you mind trying again please. :)
flycontroline@yahoo.com
Thanks
Thom
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
201 posts
Dec 17, 2009
5:07 AM
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Pinwheel if you don't mind I would like to see that article please. thank you Dennis dennis.panasci@yale.edu
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1568 posts
Dec 17, 2009
6:29 AM
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Hey All,
Perhaps I ask the wrong question or an incomplete question. As I understand the fertilization process one-half of the D.N.A. is provided by the cock and the other half comes from the hen. What I do not know is with the practice of fostering is it possible to deplete ether the nutrients in the egg or the gene count in the sperm? I am not asking about fertilizing an egg or if the process can be done. I know it works and have fostered with success repeatedly. What I am interested in knowing, is the process like turning on a light bulb? Which works or does not, or does it work on a curve were the same light if provided with lower current or voltage will still glow but not as brightly? Nature provides for egg and sperm in a mated pair to reproduce at a specific rate. We in our desire to maximize circumvent this process by fostering. Is this a harmless process or are we self defeating by doing so?
Thom
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Pinwheel
97 posts
Dec 17, 2009
6:57 AM
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THom I tried to resend that stuff. Look in your spam box or junk folder as with the attachements, your yahoo mail may have stuck them in there.
-- As for the question. So you just want to know if by making a hen drop eggs every, 14 days or so, will that affect the overall internal quality of the egg contents, and eventually the offspring that will come from that.
--I doubt anyone has documented well enough the factors of letting a hen produce "excessive" amounts of eggs and what happened to the young and egg quality. I am not sure how we would know that just simply as breeders. Which I guess is why you are asking. But I wouldnt expect much concrete evidence but more or less educated guess. Like me.
The articles may provide just some knowledge, and probably wont answer your exact question, but its poultry article, but being all avians, it applies.
Forgot to add. the sperm count will definitely not be affected. I actually have an article on pigeon semen. That one would definately be helpful to you.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 7:08 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1569 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:03 AM
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Thanks Kevin, I received them that time. I'm working now but I will read them and get back to you.
Thom
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Pinwheel
98 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:28 AM
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OK guys. I sent what I had. See if you can sink your teeth into it. I am on break right now. So this is fun for me. Ill look over some more stuff, and if I find some really hardcore information that will make your head explode ill let you know.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1570 posts
Dec 17, 2009
10:35 AM
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Kevin, I now have a strange greenish goop oozing from my ears! :)
I read the article on Annual Variation in Semen Characteristics of Pigeons and now feel as though my foster program will improve with a polygamy system. Paying attention to the optimum sperm production in March and November and the optimum temperature ranges of 19 to 24 C or 66.2 to 75.2 F could produce better birds. Designing such a program with the birds, I have available might be a challenge but I am retired!:) Any additional information you find would be appreciated.
Thank you!
Thom
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 10:38 AM
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Pinwheel
103 posts
Dec 17, 2009
12:44 PM
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Ill see what I can do. Paul is right about hens having a predetermined amount of eggs that they will lay. I just remember that laying hens on the production level will produce about 340 eggs before no matter what they do(as far as nutrition, husbandry) the eggs are going to break due to poor egg quality. This is usually due to the egg getting so big at the end of their laying cycle that the thickness becomes lesser and its not as strong. So if we say chickens are the same as pigeons as far as egg production goes, you can expect to get 340 offspring from one hen before, eggs will just break and its no longer a management thing. But we still have to find out if they are
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 12:47 PM
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fhtfire
2336 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:45 PM
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Hey Pinwheel,
I bet it is less for pigeons...and I am just thinking brood counts...chickens will lay LOTS of eggs to raise young...and I think that number if for laying hens...that are getting pumped with layer and steroids...and "STUFF" and tricks to keep them going. I bet pigeons would be much less...I would love to know the answer..
arent you a vet...or a vet student...if you are..find out..I love this kind of knowledge stuff
I guess you can tell I am a farm boy...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Pinwheel
112 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:49 PM
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Yeah, I doubt they are the same at all. Ill look into it. You can call me doc in 3 1/2 more years. lol
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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