Pinwheel
95 posts
Dec 16, 2009
7:17 PM
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Now I understand we had a lot of talk about this in the gene shortage thread. So I am aware. BUt I just want to share something I found. A few lines from a article in the Journal of Heredity on the Genetic investigation of parlor and tumbler pigeons.
" The usual practice of using line breeding methods, would help maintain the high performance of flying roller strains developed by many of the well developed fanciers. By contrast, outcrossing among different, well established lines might frequently result in a general increase in variability of performance among the first few generations of birds obtained after each outcrossing."
This is back in 1972. I believe the researchers got a lot of there information from the top fanciers of that time. Maybe that was some of you? This is more of a historical post, just to date and record what was going on then.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 7:20 PM
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winwardrollers
364 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:21 AM
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Pinwheel
What do you think..what is your version.
Notice the word "might" and what it is referring to.
Bwinward
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Pinwheel
101 posts
Dec 17, 2009
8:55 AM
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Well I guess I would think that the outcross might produce birds that compared to the maintained performance family, would add maybe a varied mature time to roll, varied propensity to break, varied depth of spin, quality of spin. Although, birds arent peas in a pod like discussed and even within a family we have different offspring even from the same parents(much different). But do like birds produce like birds, regardless of whether they are related or not? Well, like some said, look at the individual bird and not the name or whatever. If a pair perform the same, let them make a generation and see if they perform the same.
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J_Star
2204 posts
Dec 17, 2009
11:25 AM
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Breeders wishing to build a strain of rollers possessing family type uniformity can only achieve this by using an inbreeding system of one form or another. The heritable makeup of each adult bird is unalterable but by skillfully matching, the breeder can only hope that the mating will nick and advance the quality of his strain. The breeder skill in this will be evident in the quality of the young he rear. The method known as inbreeding is the system of mating together closely related birds, combined with selection, to enhance what breeders consider desirable qualities and eliminate those thought less desirable. With inbreeding, the breeder hopes to preserve the genetic line of descent and relating within a family group of rollers, the genetic influences that produces stock close to the Ideal.
If you have achieved a highly inbred family of quality rollers, how can you make them better? With an inbred family, to produce even better young birds, you need to introduce a new super gene that your own family of rollers don’t have, you need to add something extra. This is when an outcross might be relevant but it also could be a huge obstacle. It will introduce new genes into an inbred family of rollers. This introduction will produce a roller that is superior to either of the parents. It is known as hybrid vigor. It generally occurs when new super genes are incorporated within the genes of the highly inbred group of individual rollers. Be careful, hybrid vigor can be a very fragile concept. When it occurs within a loft, and unless a careful breeding strategy is carried out, it can easily be lost. It happens more often and frequent than you think. The simplest solution to maintain hybrid vigor is to keep together the pairs of rollers that produce the better rollers and not introduce any outcrosses. It is essential to set up two lines of breeding to increase the number of pairs that produce the magical hybrid vigor.
However, in mating unrelated birds, the breeder has no way of knowing from past experience or records if the good type features will prove dominant and be expressed, or if the weaker features of the mating or ancestry will gain dominance. Therefore, it is easy to understand that this variety of ancestry is an obstacle to those who wish on producing uniformity in type.
Jay
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winwardrollers
365 posts
Dec 18, 2009
9:18 AM
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Jay
Good response, I like your mention of Hybrid Vigor.
Hybrids are dissimilar parents. Horse x donkey... Racing Homer x Tippler/roller... Falcon X hawk..But I would agree you can get a likeness to hybrid vigor with with-in the Burmingham Roller themselves.
Hybrid Vigor can give a fault since of what we have unless we breed down into the four generation and past. Crossing for the vigor has many both bad and good like inbreeding or linebreeding.
I have to laugh because my daughter was working on a report for school about the Wild Dogs in Africa. She began to tell me about the problem the Cheetahs were having like the wild dogs that had alot of in/line breeding. She realized that "geographacical Isolation" was the main problem. I have not had my rollers long enough to worry about geographacal Isolation.. the Burmingham have not been in this country that long. I would say that dealing with rollers we have established families of rollers that can be breed 10, 20, 30 years without an outcross if watched over and done right...this is not always the case we know.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 5:47 PM
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J_Star
2206 posts
Dec 18, 2009
11:09 AM
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To bring Vigor back, the producer hen must be line bred back to her father or brothers but never to her sons. The cock must also be line bred back to its mother or sisters but never to his daughters. The resulting offspring from the two separate lines can then be mated and hybrid vigor will reappear.
Only good things come out of vigor if done right and in a correct manner.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 11:16 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1575 posts
Dec 18, 2009
2:16 PM
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Jay, Is this a single mating after a set number of generations? Can it be repeated within the lines? Will this enhance vigor at any point?
Thanks
Thom
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fhtfire
2337 posts
Dec 18, 2009
3:09 PM
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I like the mention of Hybrid Vigor too..although it is not being used right. Hybrid Vigor is the mating of different breeds not the mating of the same breed.
For years...pigeon faciers have called an outcross hybrid vigor and it is not. Hybrid vigor is mating different BREEDS...not strains or families. Brad hit it on the head....with his first sentence...a perfect example is the Pit Bull...that is hybrid vigor to the fullest..you mate two BREEDS to get a Super Dog and the Vigor...Or the Hybrid Falcons Prairie and Peregrine mating together..they are both falcons but different breeds of falcons.
Hybrid Vigor is basically no really defined...hybrid vigor to the breeder may be a success but other looking in may think it is crap. Its basically what the person is looking for in a breeding. If you want the tempermate of a lab in a poodle that is hybrid vigor...I say its ugly.
When I breed a Scott Campbell bird to my birds and I get some nice birds..that is NOT hybrid Vigor...that is a mating that hit....now if I bred a Parlor Roller to get more roll and bred it to a Birmingham and it worked..then that is hybrid vigor...then you start doing your INBREEDING to lock in the traits from the vigor...and then continue on with line and more inbreeding....although it can go the other way too...liek a mule cant breed...it is vigor because you get a super donkey....if that is your goal...vigor is mainly goal oriented.
So we need to use the terms right...Hybrid vigor is the mating of two established pure BREEDS...not families...you breed two well bred families and get the goods...it was nothing more then a good breeding...I hope I get that with my lab....not to interested in the HYBRID labradoodle.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2338 posts
Dec 18, 2009
3:23 PM
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CHECK THE SEARCH FEATURES>>>We had a huge discussion on Hybrid Vigor about 3 or 4 years ago..and I had some of my super long posts backed up with scientific data from plants to animals on hybrid vigor...and the true meaning....there are also myths posted as well as other input from many fanciers....basically it came down to why most use the term hybrid vigor...well its cool sounding..HYBRID VIGOR>>...and the fact that we had to call are outcrosses something if it hit...and hybrid vigor kind of fit the bill..but it had been used wrong....an outcross F1 is the easiest way to explain what we do...Lots of good points were brought up and it was a real good thread!
As far as outcrossing....it can be done with care...but it is so much easier to just incross...or take a distant relative within your own family to shake it up....and usually that would be the little hen or cock that just tears it up in every way....and you run the band number and go ...gosh dang it...this is out of my XYZ pair that is really not my main line...But this bird is 1/2 my main line..most that look at the peds more then the bird will not breed that bird..just because it is not of your main line...the ones that look at the bird and not the family or the ped..will say damn..lets try it..and you inject it into your MAINSTREAM family...then walla.....you start getting some better pigeons....and then that distant line is now back in your line...and now you can breed for another 20 or 30 like Brad said....that is the point you can inbreed again too to lock it in and then continue to line breed....this is what I was talking about that some open the genes by accident....but because your main line is there....you are not running the risk of blowing your genes out of the water...we must remember....what is on paper when you follow the lines..does not mean that is the genes that the bird is carrying....make sense....a total OUTCROSS is dagerous....but can be done with care and know how..NOT for the ROOKIE.....an incross is the best way to do it and you will have the most success...
rock and ROLL
Paul
The key is only do it when you need to do it...Most do inbreeding and line breeding and they dont know why..they are just doing it....so...everything is a tool...just dont use a hammer when you need a screw driver.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 4:49 PM
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Pinwheel
114 posts
Dec 18, 2009
3:33 PM
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Good job Paul. Hybrid vigor is the crossing of two different breeds. I actually didnt think twice about it when it was said a outcross in a tight family would get ya hybrid vigor. I like to make the example in cattle. Bos indicus X Bos taurus breeds = hybrid vigor.
Or the ligers (lion tiger mixes) those things are HUGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOWYj59BXI
you will poop ur pants
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 3:36 PM
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fhtfire
2339 posts
Dec 18, 2009
4:45 PM
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Ligers are Huge....I first heard about ligers in the movie Napoleon Dynamite...and I thought...what the freak is a liger...well...100% Hybrid Vigor...a freak'n killing machine..LOL....although a perfect example of hybrid vigor going South is when a Mule Deer and a Black or White Tail cross...from what I have read.....the offspring are retarded...they end up having the big body of a Mule deer with the little legs of a Black or White Tail..and I think the immune system gets all jacked up too....as herds start to get pushed together from man pushing them out of there natural habitat...they come across each other alot more....and when they mate..not a good think...I know the Fish and Game has this as a big concern on there radar as well as Chronic wasting disease.
Pinwheel...I would love to chat on the phone sometime with you...pick your brain about stuff..being in Vet school...over the years I have lost contact with many of the old vets that kind of groomed me back in the day in the show ring with livestock...most have since croaked....and some have moved on....anyway...what are you going to specialize in..Large or Small animal.
I am a firefighter at UC Davis in California...we have a pretty good Vet school here...anyway....my phone is 530-867-2288 cell and email is paulfullerton@sbcglobal.net
rock and ROLL
paul
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polarbear
56 posts
Dec 18, 2009
5:49 PM
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Paul, in oregon we have the bench deer, which is the mule deer crossed with the blacktail. They are in the cascades which divide western and eastern oregon.
You are correct in that they have the body of a mule deer and the antlers of a blacktail.
As far as the wasting disease goes and hairloss syndrome goes many here in oregon have linked it to some of the spray some of the logging companies used to keep vegetation down before and during the replanting of new trees.
There are two units where i live and hunt deer and elk that are owned by two different logging outfits. One used a certain spray(not sure of the name), and the other outfit used a different spray. One unit had a HUGE hairloss problem while the other did not, and they are only divided by a river and a main road.
Since they quit using the certain spray about 5 years ago they hairloss is way down, which is good because there is nothing more frustrating than getting a nice buck that is nasty and mangy looking.
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fhtfire
2343 posts
Dec 18, 2009
5:56 PM
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That is true.....I just mounted a real nice one from Utah..I shot it in 06 but a guy that was going to do it...well...never really got around to it and would not return my calls to give my my hide and my down payment back...so I told him he had until NOV 1st to get it back to me or the fish and game could get it back for me. Needless to say..I got it back in a week and another guy heard my story and did it in 3 weeks...and turned out real nice.
It sucks that chemicals by man are again messing up the animals..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
367 posts
Dec 18, 2009
7:20 PM
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Paul
From your above post.."I first heard about ligers in the movie Napoleon Dynamite..."
That is funny...I didn't realize that was in the movie.
Not far from where they produced Nepoleon Dynamite in a small resort town called Lava Hot Springs a guy was working on breeding ligers. He lived out of town down in a canyon where the stream pasted through it.. nobody took the guy to serious..he had been breeding for a few years and holding the animals in a make shift pen. He had pallets chicken wire and what ever he could find to get the growing herd more room. Well everyone found out what he was doing and had to lock down town when his herd got out...lol I'm guessing that is where the movie got the idea of Ligers. That guy's cheese diffentally fell off his cracker...he did make the News..It was quite the hunt to get them rounded up before night fall. Talk about a breeding project now that is a breeding project..lol If I remember right it was five or six that they were looking for.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 7:23 PM
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fhtfire
2344 posts
Dec 18, 2009
8:38 PM
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Hell..maybe we should breed a liger with a roller and see how the BOP due with that.>LOL...Well..I bet that is why they put it in the movie.....Hope all is well my brother..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JBow
147 posts
Dec 18, 2009
10:23 PM
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wow i know this has been said before but you young guys have to much time one your hands. I have a beautifull filly, been chasing her but she is just to fast. lmao Jim Bowen
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fhtfire
2346 posts
Dec 20, 2009
12:34 AM
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Hell Jim...Play hard to get..then the little filly will chase you...LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
2207 posts
Dec 21, 2009
5:15 AM
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You are missing the point. Pay attention to the CAPS. You can do anything in your loft for whatever works for you. The facts are facts. For vigor you can do either of two things as I said and it is your choice. I am here not to debate a thing, rather, to share information.
The first is:
In mating unrelated birds, the breeder has no way of knowing from past experience or records if the good type features will prove dominant and be expressed, or if the weaker features of the mating or ancestry will gain dominance. Therefore, it is easy to understand that this variety of ancestry is an obstacle to those who wish on producing UNIFORMITY in type. If it did not work, the fancier has to destroy the complete line so that he won’t compromise his bloodline.
The second:
To bring Vigor back, the producer hen must be line bred back to her father or brothers but never to her sons. The cock must also be line bred back to its mother or sisters but never to his daughters. The resulting offspring from the two separate lines can then be mated and hybrid vigor will reappear. This will keep UNIFORMITY in type.
Oldfart – you take the best out of the two line offspring and mate them together. You can repeat as many as you want.
Jay Alnimer
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2009 5:20 AM
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