rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
552 posts
Jan 01, 2010
2:12 PM
|
Thanks to all this discussion about style. I have paid closer attention to my birds. I have a nice black (Adam Hill), or T Check (KGB)young bird. As far as wing position goes I still do not have a clue, but I would guess High X. The spin is smooth and tight, he actually appears to shrink in the spin, and about 20 to 25 feet. However on occasion today he came out of the roll clean, and on occasion he came out doing a couple of plate spins. This bird is about 6 months old, being hatched in 09.
My question, Is he a cull becasue of not coming out clean, or do you wait and see? How long until you know that a bird is as good as he/she is going to get.
And yes I realize that different familes are different. I am working with two familes and am patient with my birds up to 1 year for them to come into the roll. However once they come into the roll, how long do you give them to clean up the spin, and commit to the spin?
Please let us know what family you have when you answer.
Thank you
----------
RT Williams
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 2:14 PM
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4002 posts
Jan 01, 2010
2:35 PM
|
They can and usually get better. At six months I am not even concerned about what they are or not doing. At that age those birds that are active sometimes at 12 months will become stiffs and those not doing anything right will become very good pigeons. I never start any evaluation until their second season. Whenever anyone asks me how my young birds are doing I respond with an "alright" or something in the order.
To answer your question; yes, some will get better while others will get worse as time moves on.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Flipmode
392 posts
Jan 01, 2010
3:03 PM
|
RT, How long is all up to you. I would say it is NOT a cull! At 6mos in the air this bird is showing an High X, the spin is smooth and tight, appears to shrink in the spin, and is about 20 to 25 feet and is not bumping all over the place? I say keep flying him. This bird is already ahead of the game. Will his exit get better or worst no one will know until he is flown and flown some more. Some birds never turn 1 flip at 6 mos and people cull them. Some cull after a year of none performance. Some spin early and develop into nice birds, some spin late and develop into nice birds. On the other hand some spin early then crash and burn or turn into culls later and some spin late then crash and burn or turn into culls even later! No one can tell you how this bird will develop. I say fly it!
|
rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
553 posts
Jan 01, 2010
4:13 PM
|
I understand what you are saying. I have an 08 Starley bird, I was going to cull but do to plans for next years breeding (need a foster) have held on to her. This bird is about 18 months old. I have room with the late hatch young birds and have been flying her with them.
In the first 16 months this bird did not even flip. Which is funny because I pulled her sister to stock. But anyway the last month she has been rolling about 10 feet. She acts like a young bird just coming into the roll. So I know what you mean about who about them coming in late ot early.
The funny thing is she is still not very good, but she has till mid March, to get good and then she will go from a cull being used as a foster to kit bird, maybe.
LOL
I hope to see the good in a year from my birds. Otherwise I plan to get rid of them unless I have another use for them. I cull young birds for bad habits, not kitting, landing early, etc.
thanks for responding
----------
RT Williams
|
wishiwon2
266 posts
Jan 01, 2010
6:07 PM
|
Trampas,
Like some the guys said above they can change, some change alot. You have to base your evaluations on averages. They arent machines, each flight is different. An example, I have a hen that when she is in the just right condition, she is superb, but when she's a little off either over or under conditioned, she is just an ordinary roller. However, if you notice that over a period of a few months they persist with a trait, or they dont respond to changes in management, you can make a more sound judgement.
As far as wing position changing ... I dont see very often a major change in that trait. In other words I have never had or seen a bird that is established in rolling (not just developing) go from a real poor wing position like an axle or low X type mature to become an H winger. One thing that doesnt seem to improve itself ever, is persistant wing-switching or plate rolling. I believe often times, it is a bird that is 'grabbing' at the air in an attempt to stop the roll impulse. These seldom gain the confidence to commit fully and roll in a smooth, clean fashion.
It has been my observation that those birds who mature with a nice clean roll and possess a good wing style, started that way as youngsters and as they matured they gained some speed and tightness, and depth.
----------
Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
|
Scott
2785 posts
Jan 01, 2010
9:44 PM
|
Condition plays in huge also.. there are many times that even my best will roll like culls for one reason or another that evolves around their condition.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
winwardrollers
396 posts
Jan 01, 2010
10:54 PM
|
Conditioning is a big factor. Just go play a game of basketball after these holiday goodies. It will take a few weeks/days to get back to where you limbs function naturally/smooth. Once in shape there is still a differance in abilities of team mates in basketball and kit birds, some just come by it natural and seem to preform effortless while others do improved because of practice as well as regress quicker if not attended to.
I simply don't have the time, patience, or perch space to wait for a bird that developes in the second year. I can not think of a bird in my family of rollers that developed in the second year that ended up better than a first year bird. I would wait for a good molt before I make to hasty of a decision.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 11:53 AM
|
Scott
2788 posts
Jan 02, 2010
9:56 AM
|
Trampus.. many of my youngbirds don't come out of the roll clean.. especially the deeper one's.. at that age many are slightly unstable and fighting to recover from the roll .. as they gain control then they start cleaning it up .. once they start hitting that point the quality and speen normaly also picks up as they just kind of learn to go with it.. I'm talking stable type pigeons here... there are particular families / birds and that run on unstability.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
556 posts
Jan 02, 2010
1:46 PM
|
Thanks Scott. I was hoping for your reply, Thier is decent odds (50/50)that this bird I used as an example is of the same family that you are flying. I wanted to know how your pigeons develop.
Thanks again
Brad, I could only dream to play basketball agian. LOL
----------
RT Williams
|
Scott
2790 posts
Jan 02, 2010
8:49 PM
|
Trampus.. from what you described above.. with "my" birds it would be right on track..
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
pigeon pete
473 posts
Jan 03, 2010
1:54 AM
|
I saw my first plate roll (at my place) in over 20 years. It was a young bird and it only did it a couple of times.
Youn birds go through all sorts of gyrations as they develop.
If it was just plate rolling I would be concerned, but the deeper a pigeon rolls, the more lenient I am as to how it exits the roll.
Spin round once and stand still, no problem?
Spin round 50 times and now stand still, ha ha.
Pete
|
Scott
2791 posts
Jan 03, 2010
8:12 AM
|
What I will add to this is if a birds tail sits at the end.. these never seem to straighted out .
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
557 posts
Jan 03, 2010
4:53 PM
|
Scott
thanks for the heads up about tail sitting. You are the second person to tell me that the ones that continue to tail sit do not become good ones.
Pete Thanks for your comments.
----------
RT Williams
|
macsrollers
244 posts
Jan 03, 2010
8:56 PM
|
As a bird matures and fully develops muscle it can improve physically in the roll. There is also the mental aspect where a bird either learns to control the roll more as it gains experience or the opposite. However my experience has been that most young birds that show a fault usually do not outgrow it. But those that are learning along the way instead of developing a fault usually end up to be good ones. By consistently observing your young teams and keeping good notes you will better identify those that learned and those that had a fault from the get go. Over time you will most likely see that the ones with the faults go back to the same parents and the good learners go back to certain pairs. Eliminate the pairs producing the fualts and breed the heck out of the pairs that produce the good learners! Ideally a bird should be flown out a minimum of about 18 months as alot can change as they mature and from moult to moult. The BOP situation is causing many to stock birds at earlier ages before the bird really has totally proved itself in the air. Another negative influence the BOP's are having on our hobby. Regardless, enjoy your next fly! Don M. LVRC
|