ok, we've read the books, and seen the drawings. someone has to have a video of an excellent roller in the air, displaying tight wing position, speed and depth for all us newbies to get it right in our heads. with all the finger pointing on the other thread, my little request was ignored, although i wasn't surprised, considering some guys had to reload! and searching youtube doesn't turn up the kind of quality i was hoping for. since all the real roller guys know what kind of birds they have, i'm sure they've taken some video or know where we can view some online.
Steve the problem is that a good roller is moving at such a high speed that normal cameras( the kind most regular fanciers would use) dont have the shutter speed to truely show the roller in action. There are lots of still photos but I have not seen a really high quality video yet. Joe ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
hay steve, i heard to many times that the video will make a good spinner and make it look sloppy and i think there's no video of the the spin............ ---------- Donny James "Fly The Best And Cull The Rest" "Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another" "Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide" 1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000 2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient 2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge 2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient "Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
The best video I have seen that showed some good footage was from the NC Big fly '89 tape I got from Donny James this one year. Donated it to the local roller club so I have no idea where it is now. I recall this older veteran flier in there that flew some that was said to be bred from Pensom stock that showed the hole beautifully. Some of the best styled rollers I seen film in a while, even with the vintage equipment back than.
Filming moving objects, especially when flying in a flock of say 20 is harder than it looks. Plus the average joe can't afford the equipment to do justice. If you don't believe it, try filming your best bird and watch it back on film.
Thor
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2304 posts
Jan 03, 2010
8:10 AM
Steve Part of the problem with moving pictures is, if you slow down the spin and examine each frame, the illusion of the spin can be lost. And as was said, most cameras are not fast enough to capture the illusion as well as the human eye. There is much controversy over, if we are actually seeing what we think we are seeing. Does wing position really add velocity, is the bird pumping its wings or holding them ridged as it revolves? I think they are propelling themselves through the revolution. What "I THINK" we are looking for in a Roller, is symmetry that is pleasing to the eye of the beholder. Symmetry that appears fast, symmetry that is steady throughout the length of the performance. The best way to get in your head, is to stand behind any judge and listen to his counts and later see what his average Quality was. After you have done that 10 or so times, you will be better equipped to understand what we are trying to put into words as "WING POSITIONS" in the future fly rules. What you see in the air and read in the fly rules should better correlate into your understanding. That is the hope anyway. Flyers "experience" with better defined fly rules should help educate the flyers so that fewer questions are needed to be asked and less misunderstandings occur. A singular standard that we all understand and abide by, will also help. Cliff
I've done enough videography on the birds in flight and performance that I can say that a lot of the definition of wing placement is relative to the stroke beginning and end in relation to where the bird is in the rotation. I would love for most of the internet breed police braggards to actually video their birds day after day and slow it down in post production. They will be introduced to reality, a reality they probably will not like to see.
The roll is an illusionary event. The better the speed the better the illusion.
Cliff, quality video should be available, and is easily done with the right equipment. since the average flyer isn't going to go and spend $2000 or more for an HD hi quality camera, maybe the nbrc could rent one? listen, i know what you're saying about standing next to a judge and listening and watching. for me that means twice a year, once for the nbrc nat'l fly, and once in the WC fly in june. with today's technology, i just don't see what the real barrier is. you say that slow motion won't show the performance correctly. ok, but i'm saying normal speed video would give many a better idea of what the judges are looking for. i can always take 5 years or more just to get those '10' or so times to listen/watch as the kit is judged. also, if the kit isn't performing well, i wouldn't be learning much. is this not a reasonable request? i'm not saying it needs to be professional footage, but at least something the newbie can shoot for. keep in mind, many of us are not in an area where there is a local club, so just seeing others fly is not always convenient. ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
What should happen is the NBRC should take some money out of our bank account and buy a REAL good camera and have the fall judge bring it with him on the fall fly. It's OUR money let's put it to some good use. It would also be a good way to make money by selling the video to members who would like to see the best kits in the country. I would buy one. WE have members who know a lot about cameras to get there input on what to buy. JMHO. ---------- MJ
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 2:02 PM
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2308 posts
Jan 03, 2010
5:25 PM
Steve Go stand under a kit of Mike Rose and Ron Kumro for a while. It won't take that long, both have some excellent birds and will move you along twice as fast. Cliff
Cliff, Mike is my friend, and i've been under his kits many times. i'm not disagreeing with your opinion regarding how one can learn by watching. i'm also not saying its the only way. i'm saying new technology can assist in seeing the better or best rollers out there. my idea is a way for all to see exactly what the Birmingham roller has evolved into. not everyone can stand under Mikes birds or Ron Kumro's. But everyone who has access to the internet, can click on a video. incidentally, MJ's idea about selling the video isn't a bad idea. i'd be willing to pay for it. i have bought videos, but none really show quality rolls where you can actually make out what the bird is doing. ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 8:30 PM
hay steve, i was going though my videos and i came a cross 1 that had slow motion and still frame while the birds was spinning they really get in to the wing position but it showed the birds beating their wings........if you want a copy of it let me know
---------- Donny James "Fly The Best And Cull The Rest" "Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another" "Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide" 1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000 2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient 2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge 2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient "Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
I think some of the best footage Ive seen, was in the documentry "Share the Blue sky" it was in the performing section.... There is also a clip of it on youtube,, Whollyrollers or somthing.. It only shows the bird from the side however it shows clearly a plate roller, first along with a couple of tumblers.. Then at the end it shows a Black W/F go into the roll and the follow it in slowmountion.. It's kinda cool,,, I do agree with getting a community camera so to speak,, I think it would benifit the sport/hobbie.. Well see. Good luck..
Booker. ---------- "Home of the Ghost Town Roller" K.C.R.C
BA Rollers you are absolutely right, but I think it's something you can learn. You have people already saying they would buy a CD and I'm sure there are some people in the NBRC that can do a very good job of filming. Bring the camera to the convention and the ones that can do a good job can help the ones that can't.It would fun to film the birds that are flown at the convention and good practice. Will this take time....yes, but I think it can be done.You don't have to spend 100,000., but remember it's our money. I've been a member of the NBRC for over 30 years and I think you would make money over time. What would a camera that could take good video cost? These are just ideas to get some good video, it might be something to look into. ---------- MJ
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 1:13 PM
Cliff, i'm only interested in helping the hobby with this idea. i wish i could afford one of these cameras, but i can't. would it make sense for the nbrc to buy one? maybe they can rent one? i think its a great idea, and i'm sure members will buy it. how many dvd's did Bluett sell? i bought one. it wasn't shot in HD, but i think he did a nice job for a novice. my point is, the club would get something that would raise money. and I DO believe a qualified videographer is needed. its good to think about, and maybe it will happen one day if the right people get behind it. unfortunately, it sounds like your not one of them. ;-( ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
You are right.. they like dog crap .. the best I have seen is what you have put together .. but they are still off. What we have is what we see with the naked eye.. which is the only way that I prefere to watch them.. video is good to see lofts ect. and that is about it.
Yours Truley .. Internet breed police
(I would love for most of the internet breed police braggards to actually video their birds day after day and slow it down in post production. They will be introduced to reality, a reality they probably will not like to see. The roll is an illusionary event. The better the speed the better the illusion. )
Steve, Cliff is Ballrollers. I'm (BMC) BA Rollers. And you are correct, I am not one of them (the right people to get behind it). However, I know what I speak, and I speak from experience.
IMHO it does not make sense to have the NBRC purchase a high quality camera. It would just "disappear". It would have to be insured as well. It would make more sense to hire a qualified videographer (who by the way must know how to edit and render the video).
If you want high quality, up close footage of quality rollers and kits, this requires good equipment, good skills on using the equipment, knowledge of the subject they are recording, visualization of what they intend to capture, either AP Pro or Final Cut Pro to capture, edit and render the product, and finally a source to mass produce the video. Oh, and a person who can go to all the events/flys.
I would like to see a good video of a convention. Sure that would be great. But the original context of your first post requires great skill and equipment. That is something that cannot be avoided if you want something of quality.
I have seen many videos and none have shown what you see with the naked eye. There might be some expensive cameras that can almost catch the bird roll. But in reality is very hard and is not the same seen them with your own eyes. There are some that even looking at the birds can't understand what they are looking or don't want to understand it. You can take the horse to the water but you can't make him drink.
Quick, you are correct. The original output HD file tends to be better. In fact in some cases quite a bit better compared to the flash compression versions shown after uploading to web video sites. For instance any of the ones I've made that are HD look much better, cleaner and smoother when watching the real file as compared to the web version. There is still a hint of flicker, but still closer to the fluid of the natural event in person.
It is possible that Steve originally meant to suggest video for slow motion to be able to see what birds are doing? That is something a good video camera/editing can provide with decent results. Most of it is in the post-processing though. There are several prosumer level 5-7K cameras out now that record real time and convert to liquid slow motion. Its amazing smooth. Someday I'd like to use one for a week as I believe the slow motion results would be more enjoyable.
BMC, i apologize for the confusion betwn you and cliff. duh, this happens as you get older! anyhoo, i still would like to see someone with experience and a good camera take a shot at producing a video we can appreciate. and putting it on the web will be much lower quality than a dvd. using a pro to 'shoot' the video has merit. i also looked into renting equipment, and the cost was surprisingly low. $50 for a 4 hour shift, and its a pro camera. i'm going to borrow my daughter's canon dslr which shoots video in 1080P. not sure of the zoom, but it will have to wait til the spring when the birds are back in the sky. and Scott, are you hating this thread too? ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
Brian Ever thought of using Justin TV to broadcast video? I have an account there. You can run the feed at 1000kbps with the right resoultion. With some hd footage and a fast `puter it should be really nice. I`ve seen some pretty quality videos on some live feeds there. You can also broadcast dvd avi or flv in a loop so you dont have to be there. ---------- V99 blue sky single beat in cadance performing now earth beckons the winged drawn breath is let quickly forth orchestral movement follows
Kenny, I check it out and like Vimeo and others, it still converts and compresses to flash. The difference in the quality (and size) of the video is determined by how aggressive their default compression is. The less compression, the better the quality, but the larger the file is, and the load and playback time. Vimeo is really good for HD video as it allows you to choose the compression. For some of the videos you have to let it load before you want to watch it, but it is often worth it if your connection can handle the load.
Steve, I have several professional videographer friends who have been tinkering with the new DSLR 1080i HD-capable cameras. The universal problem with them so far is they aren't great at auto focusing. They tend to hunt A LOT which means most have had to revert to focusing manually. This is difficult to do with moving objects whose distance is constantly changing in relation to the camera. However I've found that when videoing kits I get the best results by using manual focusing. This only works when the kit has reached a stable height which is relative to the infinity setting of the lens.
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2314 posts
Jan 06, 2010
6:17 AM
Steve I am not against a commercial venture where a high quality DVD can be made and sold to members of the fancy. I just agree with Brian, most love the illusion. I am one of those guys who appreciates the live unedited, unrehearsed "what you see is what you get". I have tried to watch my birds, even with Binoculars, and it just does not give me the same full picture as the naked eye. As a training aid, you need the skills as well as the equipment, both are probably beyond the scope of the NBRC, but again, as a private venture, I have nothing against it. Go for it and see what you can come up with. Cliff
Cliff, without a doubt, viewing a kit with the naked eye is best. however, distances between our lofts makes that impractical for the majority of us. i had no idea there was such a negative feeling regarding this. Scott says video is only good for viewing lofts. he's certainly entitled to his opinion, and i'm sure he and others would change their minds if a professional shot video was produced. i hope to attend this years convention, and then on to see the local flyers put their kits up. hopefully i'll have my hands on a decent camera to take some video. ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
????? you lost me Steve..I was agreeing with Brian 100 0/0 Scott, sorry, that was a bit harsh. i just sensed a negative reaction to the idea of video. hey, you're entitled to your opinion, and up to now, there probably hasn't been anything worthy of praise. that's why i was suggesting how great it would be to actually analyze in slow motion what the birds are doing. and yes, i DO believe the naked eye is the best tool to view this. however, as i've stated repeatedly, not everyone has the ability to stand under some excellent kits on a regular basis. also, i'm not saying video should be a substitute for the naked eye either. just a tool. ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 3:00 PM
Not what you would think at all. Kind of like pulling the curtain back and exposing the mighty OZ for what he really is. Just an illusion. I prefer the illusion of the roll to the reality of film any day.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 6:10 PM
Nice clip thanks for sharing that i have somethig to compare against what my birds do .
At 255 and 346 in the clip two birds show exceptional spin can you or anyone else let me know if that is as good as it can get as far as quality goes for spin.
Or are there birds that go tighter and faster than that? your opinion would be appreciated
Great,, video some of the best ive seen. I really like the breakdown with the slowmo,,, Thanx for sharing. ---------- "Home of the Ghost Town Roller" K.C.R.C
hay steve, i'm not smart enough to send to you by email i can make the video and send it to you........... ---------- Donny James "Fly The Best And Cull The Rest" "Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another" "Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide" 1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000 2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient 2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge 2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient "Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
It all depends on the viewing angle Cliff. Of course speed has a lot to do with it as does light. You'll always see the wings better on a white flighted or ash red based bird in blue skies better than those same birds on overcast days. If you look closely you can see that most of the birds do something a little different than the others. I noted some actually show stroking at the beginning of the roll and stroke less as they go along which would change the way a bird looks style-wise.
i've seen the 'wholy roller' video, which is similar. and yes, it is'nt as pretty as real time. sort of like seeing that blind date in the bright lights after spending the evening in the dark movie house!! a bit shocking, eh? Brian, i just saw a clip from CES about the new canon HD video camera that has a feature that kinda locks on to an object/person. you touch the screen and the camera stays focused and follows no matter how fast it moves. i was thinking this would be pretty cool, although entry price is supposed to be around 1400. the problem with web video is its too sloppy or slow. i'm thinking more of HD quality in full speed. what would one pay for an hour or so of full speed (you can always slow it down on playback) roller action shot professionally? ---------- Steve in Blue Point, NY
