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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
hope this helps
hope this helps
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Dave Szab
4 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:19 PM
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Here is a copy of my post that Tom referred to in his post.
Dave
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Just to throw a dose of reality into this discussion, consider the following:
First off, the judging of the aerial performance of rollers is, and will always be, subjective. Any roller judge, and that includes my buddy Scott, that claims that he can see the wing position on every bird, on every break, especially when the breaks get larger, is full of shit. Wing position can only be seen at certain angles and at certain distances and heights, and our brains are not capable of seeing it on every bird in larger breaks, period. Therefore the quality of the birds rolling must be determined by the judge's experience with what is a minimum acceptable roll, all the way up to an ultimate roll. His subjective judgement.
If you can't see wing position on every bird, on every break, then you CANNOT rely on it for an exact determination of the quality factor, as some would want, nor can you write specific rules regarding only judging certain wing positions. What you CAN do is write guidelines for the judge to consider when he is making his subjective judgements of the quality factor and what he should consider as his "adequate" minimum, but his decisions will still be final, because it is his subjective judgement.
Here are the definitions of subjective and objective, to refresh everyone's minds, and bring some back to reality:
subjective
(1) : peculiar to a particular individual (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background
objective
: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
If you read, and completely understand those definitions, then you cannot believe that roller judging could ever be objective. All that we can ever hope to accomplish is to train judges, and use judges that can do the best job of subjective judging that they can, based on clear guidelines that we give them.
The last section of our rules says it all, even though some just think it allows the judge to do anything he wants, I feel that it spells out the REALITY of judging the aerial performance of rollers. I have made comments in bold type below within the section below.
Integrity
The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.
-when it talks about "his standard" it is making a reference to the subjectivity of this sport, it does not mean that he can make things up. If you don't like his standard then don't use him. If you want to improve all judges, then give them guidelines and train them, the subjectivity will remain, but you will get more consistency.
This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers!
-this is self explanatory, if you judge tumblers, you should be banned from judging.
Roller flying is a subjective sport and the judge may have to make allowances for extraordinary circumstances.
-there's that "subjective" word again, that is the REALITY, and we must come to terms with it, or we will be arguing forever.
In any case, the judge’s decision is final and anyone verbally or physically attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be banned from future NBRC events.
-the judge's decision is FINAL, period, exclamation point! It has to be this way, you asked him to make his decisions when you asked him to judge, if you don't like his decisions, then don't ask him again.
Yes, we should keep our standards high, but we also have to keep in mind the reality of the subjective nature of our sport.
Dave Szabatura
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2010 6:26 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
558 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:25 PM
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I would like to see the NBRC add this statement(or something simalr), and then get rid of the language that is subjective.
I found this statement informative as a new flier as to what I sould be looking for out of my kit birds.
"7. Rolling style is characterized by the appearance given by the wing
placement during the roll while viewed from behind or below the rolling
pigeon. Ideal style is characterized by pigeons whose wings appear close
to the body, approaching a vertical position ("H" or "( )" style) while
rolling. Lesser rolling styles are characterized by the degree to which
the wings appear to project out to the sides of the rolling pigeon,
giving an increasingly obvious "X" style or appearance. The least
favored style, the "axle roller," gives the appearance that the wings
project out horizontally from the sides of the bird while rolling.
Performances which are clearly "axle" style do not merit scoring."
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RT Williams
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JMUrbon
838 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:34 PM
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Kenny, Dave
Thank you both for these posts.If they are read and understood then maybe we can get past this subject much quicker. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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J_Star
2226 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:38 PM
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Welcome back Dave.
Jay Alnimer
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Dave Szab
5 posts
Jan 03, 2010
6:45 PM
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Thanks Jay
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fhtfire
2421 posts
Jan 03, 2010
7:31 PM
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Finally..someone that actually put it into words...That is what we have been saying the whole time...it appears that the axle rule was in the rules before..and then somebody decided to DUMMY them down.I hope that the EC can come together and put the rules back where they should be...they make more sense...because in any animal competition..undesirable traits should not be scored or allowed...if we move in the right direction we will then fall in line with other organizations and there feeling on keeping a breed pure and to the upmost standard.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Thanks for the Post KGB>...We still need to set a standard too..as much as we all worry about setting a standard...it has to be done...sooner or later....the longer we wait...the less old guys are around to discuss the standard or intent...as new blood comes in without a standard ingrained in there head....then it will be hard to pass anything worth a crap..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2422 posts
Jan 03, 2010
7:32 PM
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Welcome back Dave....Now get to work and voice your opinion on this...we need you!!
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
184 posts
Jan 05, 2010
11:43 AM
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Thanks for the post ...
Larry
Make It Rain Loft/N.C.R.C.
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