George R.
254 posts
Jan 06, 2010
7:38 PM
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Do you guys agree that if the NBRC Fly Rules are to be changed in order for the Birmingham Roller can have a breed Standard, shouldnt the Birds that are not 100% Birmingham Rollers not be allowed to Fly in the NBRC Championship Fly or be banded with a NBRC band ?????
Now we all know that rare color Rollers are not Purebred can we agree on that ?
Do you think the A.K.C. would recognize(a Labrador MIX if it was 99.9 percent pure? or would the A.D.B.A allow a Pitbull MIX that is only 99 % pure compete in weight pulls ?
If we are to change the Fly Rules to better our Breed then we need to exclude Birds that are not Pure( Turds).
Or should we make excuses and say well the Roller does not have to be PUREBRED to be considered a Birmingham Roller? What kind of standard would that be ????
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 8:43 PM
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BA Rollers
313 posts
Jan 06, 2010
7:49 PM
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No I do not agree.
There are different types of standards.
Genetic Standards (for pedigree-maintaining lineage and value)
Phenotype Standards (such as what show breeds use to dictate what a breed should look or be structured like)
Performance Standard (is purely in regards to the suggested performance a specimen must be able to perform to me that criteria set forth)
The NBRC will NEVER have a phenotype nor a genetic standard. It would excluded a significant portion of its membership and ultimately usher in its demise.
A performance breed is capable of possessing a performance standard. Rollers are no different in that regard and someday that might just be one written into the NBRC by-laws. That said, because the NBRC says so doesn't make it official.
PS--you need better bait. Yours is stale.
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donnie james
877 posts
Jan 06, 2010
8:29 PM
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hay george,
no if they change the rules its going to be a bigger mass it already is...........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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George R.
255 posts
Jan 06, 2010
8:36 PM
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Brian
then if my Half pitbull and half Labrador retrieves Ducks will the American Kennel Club recognize Him as a retriever ?
If performance breed standards are only performance based then if I can train a Great Dane to chase a metal rabbit around a Racetrack I can enter him in a Greyhound race at a Dog track right?
Just think if you Got a Half Quarter Horse and half thourobred you can race him in the Kentucky derby as long as he can RUN he will be considred a Racehorse in some folks opinions.
If we are going to start setting Breed standards for the Birmingham Roller then we need to eliminate all UNDESIRABLE TRAITS and that includes Mongrel Colors and genes that were bred into the Birmingham Roller after it was already recognized as a Breed .
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 8:42 PM
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Hector Coya
598 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:10 PM
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George
My understanding is that the Birmingham roller like every other man made pigeon was made from crosses,Nohas Ark didn't have a pair of rollers and a pair of Modinas and so on,theses where man made and for ever will carry hidden genes,like a white boxer,AKC dosnt recognize it but they still pop out from some of the top pedigree Boxers.
The Roller is no different we will never know what exactly went into them,like old dutch tumbler or west of England,that's how we still get muffs out of 2 clean legged rollers.
Just like the people from England came to my defence and said they do get crest ,well that in itself is a throwback from some crosses many years earlyer.
Hector Coya
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glenn
277 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:15 PM
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The National Roller Club
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George R.
256 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:20 PM
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Hector
I understand that all breeds were created useing a mix of other Breeds BUT once a breed is established it is then recognized as a it's own breed .
And once a person crosses one breed to another that is when the offspring are considered Mongrels. I am just saying that if the NBRC Fly rules are gonna be tampered with under the disguise of bettering the Breed of the Birmngham Roller and establishing a standard then why not clean up the breed and establish STRICT rules like the U.K.C. and A.K.C. and other organizations that encourage keeping Breeds true and PURE . how are we to set a standard when we Got impure specimans in our National Club...
In order to be recognized as a legitimate organization we would have to exclude all mix breed Rollers.
Here is the meaning of a mongrel .
mon·grel (mnggrl, mng-)
n.
1. An animal or a plant resulting from various interbreedings, especially a dog of mixed or undetermined breed.
2. A cross between different breeds, groups, or varieties, especially a mixture that is or appears to be incongruous.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 9:33 PM
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Robert Pelham
7 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:23 PM
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The best bird in my 95 team was a Indigo.out of a Amound C.From Randy Gibson.& a D/C Pensom Sparks H.Beat R.Parker with that!!
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George R.
257 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:27 PM
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Robert
I am not saying that Mix breed Rollers dont Roll I ahve seen many that do Roll But that still dont make them Birmingham Rollers .
My mutt can retrieve and retrieve better then 80% of purebred Labradors , but he will never be considered a Labrador retriever because he is a Mongrel.
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Robert Pelham
8 posts
Jan 06, 2010
9:41 PM
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I have the 47 NPA book of standers and the Birmingham is clean legged grouse & booted and the Almound is also in there.Yellow.Cream.Indigo.Red Mottles.Spangles. Check it out Much Respect.
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Square
774 posts
Jan 06, 2010
10:00 PM
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WOW,,This is gonna be a GOOD ONE!!! Be nice to see what this all becomes in the end, Wing positions, colour, proper judging,standards for the breed,,Evolution of the breed... I just cant wait to see what it will be 10years from now..LOL Were the red badges Pensom had some kind of cross?? Just really hard as pigeons are so diverse, Kinda like the mixed pit that retrevies.... Crazy topic cant wait...
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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pigeon pete
481 posts
Jan 07, 2010
3:25 AM
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Robert,
The NPA is s show organisation, and the show fraternity continually cross breed to improve one aspect or another, and when the progeny are near enough back to the standard they will show them.
If a top Modena exhibitor develops a new colour by outcrossing, once they have the type right they get the new colour accepted in the breed standard.
They are usually leading lights in the breed club.
The national breed club adopt the new colour or standard and then apply to the NPA to change the standard. So, show rollers could have any colour or structural change if the Breed society and the NPA agree.
As there is no show standard for the flying Birmingham roller, you can probably exhibit any colour that is listed in the show roller standard, plus any new colours or colours they don't have classes for, in the 'any other colour' class at an NPA show. They are flying rollers as far as the NPA is concerned because they are only interested in beauty, and you entered them in the flying roller class. As far as most of the flying hobby is concerned they will be mongrels.
Pete
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 3:27 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
599 posts
Jan 07, 2010
5:51 AM
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George,
Brian is right, you need to upgrade your stink bait. Not many will fall for this silly attempt to stir up your compost heap! Trollin, trollin, trollin, keep the lunacy rollin!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Grandadde11
2 posts
Jan 07, 2010
6:50 AM
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George
I am not sure what your goal in this post is. You seem to want to illiminate all of the exodic color birds from the Birmingham. If all roller flyers were to agree to do this on the belief that all exodics are unpure,how would we still do this?By all fainess If they meet the body type ect. If we eliminate all the exodics should we not eliminate all the said normal looking colors that are produced from the exodics? I have been raising pigeons for over fourty years. I have seen alot of issues in that time. I know for a fact when I was young in the hobby/sport it was common practice in pigeons to consider a bird bread back to one patricular type 7 generations, or time to be considered pure bred/type.most of th current colors hav been around for a long long time. Some that have belone to the birmingham roller more than 50 years. When I was a younster the old timers I was hangin with would take the exotic colors that would show up in there birds and destroy them. they did this because they were afraid they would be looked at as one not breeding pure birms. I on more than one acasion begged to have a bird from one of my mentors, Yes a so called exotic color, not yet understood by the roller flyers. I was simply advised it would cause me more harm than good.What I am trying to impress you with is why be against somthing that is of little effect on the true nature of the birm. If they look the body type, and act th type why not accept them rather than be against them. maybe find some color of now bred true exotic that cathes your eye, then fly them. Oh dont expect any better from them than you can produce from your standard wild type color of birms. Family is all you have May it be persanal, work, hobby. love is were your heart is Glen
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PAUL R.
140 posts
Jan 07, 2010
8:04 AM
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George, I have had the pleasure of taking my pitbuls to weight pulls. But if a MUTT can outpull a pitbull, man what an embarrasment to say the least.
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Sound Rollers
171 posts
Jan 07, 2010
8:54 AM
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Breed for roll, whatever it takes. George, If your rollers are the standard for performing rollers and mine are equal it doesn't matter what color they are. The only genetic we should be concerned with is that which makes them roll, it doesn't matter what uniform their wearing. I like to look at it like a NFL football team, if you can play with the best, your hired.
John
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Robert Pelham
9 posts
Jan 07, 2010
10:50 AM
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George.Do not fill the page with a lot of bull about goats & dogs if you can't compet with your birds change them or quit.do not change the rules to fit your birds.its been done!much respect Robert Pelham
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2318 posts
Jan 07, 2010
11:41 AM
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I'm trying hard to bite my tongue, George. But when you start crap like this it is very difficult.
I would like to introduce a few historical references to help us to make better choices in how we reach clearer understandings on some of these questions.
What is a Birmingham Roller?
"Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball and this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham Roller." P.8
In my opinion a reference to a "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER" is a performance standard and not a "BREED" standard.
The Perfect Roller
".... The perfect Rollers does not exist but when I mention the perfect roller, refer entirely to the roll and not the pigeon...... the perfect roll is one that is created at a maximum speed in a straight line downwards and looking like a small ball.... this performance is the goal of ALL ROLLER BREEDERS....."
Here again, we see that reference is made to the performance, not the pigeon, as our standard.
WHP P. 10
Two types of Rollers in America
"The English Type Roller, or as the old timers call it. THE NEW-TYPE ROLLER, and some authorities come out and admit that they mean ROLLERS OF THE PENSOM strain when they use these designations, is a somewhat different bird and bred to different ideals."
These birds are bred for perfection and frequency of performance. Performance is always foremost and, as a Roller's one claim for recognition is its performance this is as it should be."
To be worthy of the designation of Birmingham Roller, Pensom states the bird should roll straight down like a falling ball, with inconceivable rapidity...... Listing of faults etc."
Next to quality of the roll, kit action or unity of action of all birds in the kit, is most important in the Pensom type of Roller...."
"The reader will note that height of fly, duration of fly and depth of roll are not considered of primary importance in this type of Roller" I am baffled by what he is writing about here?
"So in reality the Pensom Roller is not a new type Roller but the old original English Roller brought to a higher degree of perfection in and around Birmingham, its place of origin. The best Roller fanciers in England state that any bird that rolls is entitled to be called a Roller, but the name BIRMINGHAM ROLLER should be used only to designate these birds that perform in accordance with the high standards set for these Rollers in their place of origin. In other words, swift straight, true performers, that revolve like a buzz saw and straight down, stopping on a dime after the end of the roll and getting back into formation."
Ray Perkins APJ 1942 P. 44-45
All references found in The Birmingham Roller Pigeon WHP and others.....Another reference to performance being the only defining factor to be used to define the breed. I have provided reams of similar pages of information written by Pensom and others to substantiate this point of view, (like when Pensom said that a Tumbler and a true Birmingham Roller can occupy the same nestbox)and I am not going to take the time to dig it all up, again, for your sake George.
While I find these writings to be sufficiently valid enough that I can base my personal opinion on them, not all readers may reach the same conclusions. Things have changed over the decades, men have grown in their understanding of these birds. The NBRC was established with a committment to performance, the time-honored defintition of the Birmingham Roller, and I don't see that changing any time in the foreseeable future.
Just my opinions.
Thanks for your time.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 11:46 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2319 posts
Jan 07, 2010
11:48 AM
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Paul
These animal registries that accept 5-7 generation pedigrees as "pure" after a cross was made. What was their reasoning behind that? Do you think that it to improve the breed? Or to help the fancy grow? Was it to help control controversy? If you know, I would be interested, or if you have an opinion about it. I bet these paper trails and various restrictions apply to all animals in the registry not just the ones crossed.
Thanks for that very interesting and enlightening information.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 11:49 AM
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steve49
381 posts
Jan 07, 2010
12:19 PM
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i know nothing of these colors you guys mentioned. so, could you tell me what colors would indicate the roller isn't pure? or to put it another way, what colors indicate the bird has had a cross in its ancestry that was not a roller?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Robert Pelham
10 posts
Jan 07, 2010
12:20 PM
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I read a old pegent report where Pensom had showed a Yellow! If you can do better show it in the air.90% of good kits go to the trianer& same with bad.ones who can't .write!much respect.Robert
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Velo99
2271 posts
Jan 07, 2010
12:56 PM
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I managed to type this before my eyes glazed over and I started drooling down my chin.
Color dont roll and peds dont fly.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2320 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:09 PM
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Steve
I doubt you have anything to worry about with the bloodlines you fly.
Cliff
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fhtfire
2438 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:16 PM
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Cliff,
I explained it in post 2435...it is not done to better the breed..some try but it does not work out....the main reason I feel is if a breeding takes place that you do not want..like a buck mounting a doe by accident....but the offspring are very good then you may try and breed it out....it does not happen very often because most breeders will not take an animal that has any cross papers in the background...
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Robert Pelham
11 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:30 PM
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Do not time for this.I am training a young team rigth now first time out 27 young.And making 4 Kit boxxes for a top flyer.I have made 100s of them.much respect.Robert Pelham.hope to fly a team of yellows & creams 2010 W C
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2321 posts
Jan 07, 2010
1:38 PM
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Paul
I agree that it does not happen very often, for few very few take the time to follow the genetic blue prints to get the job done by the book. This bloodline I am working with has produced and has worked out well over the years. I am glad to see other animal registries found a way to include crosses once they meet the number of generations called for and meet the standard for that breed. Wish it could happen here but I know it won't. End of story.
Robert,
I have a kit of birds that are just coming into spin also (it's alwasy fun to see them come into a 20-ft spin for the first time!); a young bird kit that I am flying out; and squeakers that I am getting ready to settle this weekend. I sure am looking forward to longer days!!
Thanks
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 1:42 PM
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steve49
382 posts
Jan 07, 2010
5:30 PM
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Cliff, thanx. what about recessive red (i think, because i've got 3 different reds?) and yellow? i've got a yellow self, and a yellow bald head, and was curious after reading these threads if these colors might mean some other color breed was introduced previously. and when you say, "my bloodlines", are you referring to kumro/jlsmith?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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George R.
258 posts
Jan 07, 2010
5:46 PM
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Steve
Yellow and Almond are not Rare colors. Milky and Pencil ETC are considred rare colors.
I really dont care what Color a roller is when it spins .. I am Just saying that if the Rules are to be changed to set a Breed Standard then we need to eliminate Birds that are not 100% Birmingham Rollers in order to be in line with the orginizations that recognize breeds of other animals.
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steve49
384 posts
Jan 07, 2010
5:56 PM
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George, ok, thanx. wasn't there a website that showed different colors? one red bird i have is what i think is called recessive, it has no other hidden markings, just solid soft, red. another red bird has what can be seen as tail bars, and a grayish coloring to the flights. its beak is different too, not like the recess red which has a clear beak, and light nails.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4018 posts
Jan 07, 2010
6:24 PM
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I am staying out of this one..............for my own self respect(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Robert Pelham
12 posts
Jan 07, 2010
10:10 PM
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A little knowen fact all Birmingham Rollers have Oriental Rollers behind them.In the late 70s.I flew some german imports.they all rolled most of them rolled down.But that where the yellows & almonds &indigo come from.So when you inbreed you can get trough backs.so it will always be back there.much respect.Robert aka Pensom Jr lol
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wishiwon2
273 posts
Jan 07, 2010
10:27 PM
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George said, - "I understand that all breeds were created useing a mix of other Breeds BUT once a breed is established it is then recognized as a it's own breed."
Typically when a breed is 'established' there is some sort of a registry where foundation stock are inspected and found to meet some common standard or possess a unique trait that sets them apart from others of the same species. Thereafter, all descendants must be registered and permanently identified (some registries require DNA evidence). If offspring result from matings not included in the registry, they are appendixed and after a certain number of generations and subject to inspection to see that they meet the original standard, before being recognized as members of that breed. A breed is an arbitrary definition, created by human whim and therefore subject to modification, not some scientific classification.
In my opinion, Birmingham rollers arent a 'breed'. They are already mixed up ancestry birds that perform a rolling behaviour. I believe it is possible to 'establish' them as a breed. We would first have to write a description of what makes them unique, then form a registry, inspect those foundation stock individuals to verify they meet the standard. After a time the stud book would be closed and only those which are descendants of the foundation stock would be considered members 'the breed'. We each would be required to pay registration fees, and transfer fees to maintain the official records and the integrity of 'the breed'.
... But why? It wont change my enjoyment of the birds, nor will it make them roll better. Just like the certified spinner program, I believe it would only serve those who are in the roller selling business. They would be able to claim "registered stock from such and such". We already have an over abundance of that.
George, if you have a definition of what a 100% Birmingham Roller is and a failsafe method to prove whether a bird is 100% pure, I'd support you. But until then ... not with a ten foot pole.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2326 posts
Jan 08, 2010
8:05 AM
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George
I haven't seen or heard anything about a "Breed Standard" on any of the internet sites, until you brought the subject up. The last I heard, the discussion was that the NBRC Fly Rules need to include a QUALITY standard; a performance standard and clarification of the rules used in competition. We already have a depth standard (well, sort of). If we could include a velocity standard of revs to fast to count and define score-able wing positions XAHO, best to least quality, we could have a quality standard so the judge could use it, instead of HIS standard. But I have not heard about a new breed standard other than the performance standard that defines the breed. That is clear as mud, but that is it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2010 8:06 AM
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Robert Pelham
13 posts
Jan 08, 2010
12:45 PM
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All I am trying to say you will steal get Throwbacks no mater what you say! Much respect..Robert.aka Pensom Jr lol
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Ty Coleman
835 posts
Jan 09, 2010
3:54 AM
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If you enter a mule [1\2 horse 1\2 Donkey ] in the Kentucky Derby, and it manages to run with the purebreds don't kick the mule, find out whats wrong with the horses. To add to the dog thing I can register a unpapered dog through the CKC with just a vets signature and mine being i'm a CKC breeder. It's called a dynamic registry. This is a registry by site only. Being there is only a performance standard for the Birmingham Roller, guess what ? I have several Birmingham Rollers !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Sound Rollers
172 posts
Jan 09, 2010
4:06 AM
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I will be flying Sound Rollers this summer.
John
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Windjammer Loft
1047 posts
Jan 09, 2010
7:11 AM
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Can't we start off the "New Year" without this topic of "Pure" bred stuff..... WHO CARES???? Everyone knows that their is "NO" such thing in rollers anymore.....LOL
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2010 7:12 AM
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lionel
100 posts
Jan 12, 2010
7:39 AM
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Curious George... lol Sounds like someone scared of losing to mongrels.
Some people change bloodlines like changing their chonis, they cant manage a bloodline and instead of aknowledging the faults of their standerd they move on to different bloodlines. How far will they go!!! May be those individuals should try these mogrels.
They just might succeed.
Lets all just enjoy our birds no matter what color shape or form they are.
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Leonel
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