DeepSpinLofts
1625 posts
Jan 12, 2010
9:57 AM
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Re: "Grandmother to Grandson Mating"
Any of you out there had any luck with this particular pairing?
According to my records I've tried;
1) Mother to Son
2) Father to Daughter
3) Half Brother to Half Sister
4) Aunt to Nephew
5) Uncle to Niece
6) Grandfather to Grand-daughter
7) Cousin to Cousin
....but
No grandmother to grandson matings.
I noticed the best depth in my birds are the mother to son & father to daughter matings. Also there has been more frequency in cousin to cousin matings. The basic goal is to tighten up the gene pool and solidify the quality of aerial performance in my birds.
Any feedback would be welcome.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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fhtfire
2441 posts
Jan 12, 2010
11:58 AM
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Marcus,
I get my best results with cousins and Aunt/Uncle-Niece and nephew...even great uncle and Aunts. When I do my pretzel breeding...I usually hit the cousins on the down turn of the pretzel and when I head back up the pretzel..I will hit aunt and uncles...then with those offspring....I will go back up to the grandparents and then back down again...
I only hit tight inbreeding if it is needed. Like when you starting out your family or you find a trait and want to lock it in...then I breed from that trait with the pretzel again....Father Daughter etc....I feel is good for a short term only to lock in a trait...
Pretzel and line breeding is basically keeping it tight but open enough to not breed yourself into a corner or a wall....Pretzel breeding is just a slang term used in certain breeding arenas...Pretzel breeding has worked the best for me in all of my breeding projects from pigeons to livestock...but believe it or not..most dont do pretzel..because there are many forks you can take...so it can be confusing..but the main reason from my experience..believe it or not is the fact it does not look as clean on a pedigree....
Like I have said before..every loft is different..there are many breeding techniques but the best breeders use them all when needed. The trick is knowing when to let go of one technique and move to another...they all work hand in hand if done right.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1597 posts
Jan 12, 2010
4:47 PM
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Marcus, I have used grandfather to grand-daughter with success but my best have been father and daughter. Starting with the origanal pair, then breeding the best cock back to his mother, and then the best hen from that mating back to her father.
Paul, Do you have a Pretzel breeding chart or guide?
Thom
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fhtfire
2442 posts
Jan 12, 2010
5:40 PM
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Thom,
There is really no chart for pretzel breeding because there are so many ways you can go with the system...with other types of breeding they are pretty cut and dry....but I did send and email to a Mr. Cook that asked me the same question....so I explained it in the email....I will cut and paste the email in a second.
Posted!
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2010 5:48 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1599 posts
Jan 12, 2010
6:33 PM
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Paul, Thank you! BUTT, I'm confuseded. It is much like brain freeze! You are a better man then I will ever be! :)
Thom
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DeepSpinLofts
1626 posts
Jan 12, 2010
6:40 PM
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Paul & Thom thanks for your posts! Informative and very interesting data.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1600 posts
Jan 12, 2010
7:11 PM
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Marcus, you are welcome!
Paul, I'm trying to understand, so bear with me please. Take one pair of birds, and using the best of both sex back to their parents in the second generation. From this pairing use the best back to their parents in the third generation, but not to the original pair and so on and so on......
Would you call this pretzel or line breeding?
Thom
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fhtfire
2444 posts
Jan 12, 2010
10:33 PM
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Thom,
Whenever you breed back to the parents it is just plain old inbreeding. Line breeding is taking and breeding him to some different hens. You take the best offspring from the different hens and breed back to the original cock....then you take those off spring and and you can do a distant relative...then you take those offspring and then go back to the original cock. It is basically when you see the same cock all throughout the pedigree...some of Tonys peds show line breeding.
Pretzel you really never go back to the original cock or hen...you go around them and then above them....until the original cock or hen become the grand parents then you go back to the original parents...Pretzel breeding is basically keeping it tight by going back and fouth between your two orignal pairs offspring, or relatives...everytime you move forward and build a new pretzel..the original pair become grandparents, great grandparents...then you will shoot back to them....once you have what you want...no need to go back to the originals...you then work with all the off spring and brothers and sisters to the original pairs...if you find you are losing something that the orignal pair possesed...you then can shoot back to them...now you can see how pretzel breeding is confusing on paper..but in my mind its pretty easy....you just keep going back and fourth...the genes are tight..but not super tight.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1601 posts
Jan 13, 2010
4:09 AM
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Thanks Paul, You are right it is confusing.
Thom
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quickspin
1097 posts
Jan 13, 2010
9:54 AM
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Paul, I guess that is what I'm doing also Pretzel breeding. Crossing my main families on the top this way they will be related at the end.
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Salas Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1603 posts
Jan 13, 2010
12:13 PM
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Marcus,
The best mating for me occurred in this fashion. Starting with one pair breed for the best young birds of both sex. The progeny will be ½ of the cock and ½ of the hen.
Then breed the best of both sex back to their parents, producing young birds that are ¾ of each starting parent.
Breed them back to the original cock and hen producing birds that are 7/8 of each starting parent.
At this point you have replicated the pair you started with except for selection. Within the inbreeding you use selection of the very best otherwise there is no point. In keeping only the best of the traits you desire and getting rid of those you do not, improvement over the original parent pair can be made.
This is but one way to improve your stock and by no means the only way.
Thom
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0221
367 posts
Jan 13, 2010
12:20 PM
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My best, have been, son to mother. If your having trouble with quality. Get rid of have your breeders and start over. Food for thought. Anyone who breeds from more than six pairs, either doesn't know what they're doing, or ther're selling pigeons. have fun, Al...
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4032 posts
Jan 13, 2010
3:13 PM
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The best is always father-in-law to step daughter
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4033 posts
Jan 13, 2010
3:20 PM
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I got to breed 70 to 80 to keep the hawks healthy(LOL). No, really I don't loose many to hawks after I got by my first year in Arkansas. I am looking for 14 to 20 good birds out of the 70 to 80. I don't sell birds.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 10:59 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
1627 posts
Jan 14, 2010
6:06 PM
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Thom... sounds like a very promising breeding system you've described.
Below is what you have stated. It makes for an excellent breeding program in my opinion. I've listed your system in a 3 step process to better understand the procedures.
Thom's breeding system:
1) Starting with one pair breed for the best young birds of both sex. The progeny will be ½ of the cock and ½ of the hen.
2) Then breed the best of both sex back to their parents, producing young birds that are ¾ of each starting parent.
3) Breed them back to the original cock and hen producing birds that are 7/8 of each starting parent.
At this point you have replicated the pair you started with except for selection.
========================================================
{P.S.} Great stuff here Thom!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1605 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:52 AM
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Marcus, I am just following an old line breeding chart with a slight twist.
I do want to stress that breeding that close will bring out the worst traits as well as the best. Selection, selection, selection is the key! Along with starting with the very best stock available.
Thom
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 5:56 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1606 posts
Jan 15, 2010
5:55 AM
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Marcus, I want to add a few thoughts to clarify. The method you outlined is exactly how I am with my core stock but that is not the only way I pair my birds. I also pair by selection alone with little thought to relationships. My birds are so closely inbred I feel I can do this and expect good results.
Once you have good stock it is imperative to allow enough time for your chosen method to work. Switching breeding methods or birds trying to find the magic will not advance any program but instead will destroy the effort.
The way I breed my birds is but one method. It is working for me but may not be for everyone. Each person must decide on what works for them and then STICK WITH IT!!!! :)
Thom
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 5:57 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
1629 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:34 PM
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Re: "breeding that close will bring out the worst traits as well as the best"
I tend to get rolldowns when I breed too close.
Father -to- Daughter
...and
Mother -to- Son.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1609 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:13 PM
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Marcus, That is were selection plays such an important role.
Thom
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JMUrbon
857 posts
Jan 15, 2010
4:52 PM
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I agree Thom. I pair up mostly by gut feeling. I really dont care about relations. There is more to it for me than just the performance of a bird. I look at charachter,type and expression also. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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diamondrollers
367 posts
Jan 17, 2010
9:11 PM
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what can say is that if you keep the same birds for a long time in due time they will all be related
sal
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