Pinwheel
122 posts
Jan 13, 2010
7:46 PM
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I was wondering if you guys could give your feedback on this thought that came to me. If one allowed their rollers complete freedom outdoors, only keeping them in at night to roost, a decline in their performance over time would be noticed. . This is in a perfect world with no predation.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 7:52 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4037 posts
Jan 13, 2010
8:17 PM
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If a roller lives with non performing birds the roller will eventually stop performing. It would stand to reason that if they are free lofted their performance would decline or even cease.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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JMUrbon
851 posts
Jan 13, 2010
8:23 PM
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I have no idea as to why but if allowed to free loft the performance does slow down or completely stop. The Roll has to be harnessed or it is lost. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sound Rollers
176 posts
Jan 13, 2010
8:44 PM
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Pin, are you thinking along the lines, that the roll in a roller is some what of a nervous twitch stimulated by the sudden act of release/flying and that over time they would lose the roll because of the lack of that excitement? I've thought of that and don't know. I just recently read a post about rollers rolling in the kit box at feeding time, it looks like the excitement of feeding time triggered the roll response. Why do some goats faint? lol.
John
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 8:46 PM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
249 posts
Jan 13, 2010
9:02 PM
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I know I am going to jump into the fire here and somewhat agree that free lofting birds continually will slow down the roll, but I remember specifically going to Pomoroy Washington to visit a roller fancier..he was not available for 30 minutes...I sat there and watched birds that had been free lofted for several months...spinning up a storm..I personally picked on smokey hen out of the air and had to wait for her to come down to catch her. That said, I personally do not go with the idea that it takes a "Trigger Bird" to get a bird to roll or a sudden release from a dark kitbox...I have several J.L. Smith birds that are very deep and like to fly by themselves for 1-2 hours and spin with good style and depth every 2-3 minutes over the duration. They are singles. Just some thoughts..no absolutes..Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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RodSD
380 posts
Jan 13, 2010
11:06 PM
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If you are referring to some complete freedom, then basically they get lazy and not perform. They will probably develop bad habit of not performing.
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Squabby*32
136 posts
Jan 13, 2010
11:26 PM
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I could remember growing up and watching a large flock of commies that would visit my neighbors house to eat as she fed them every day. There were several good quality rollers in the flock that would roll very well and deep, making a clean exit every time they would roll. They never lost the ability to roll or their quality. Those rollers would have made excellent kit birds for someone.
Just my thought about the subject....
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2331 posts
Jan 14, 2010
9:19 AM
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Pinwheel
A few years back Rick Schoening put an article in the NBRC bulletin titled Lisa's Barn Birds. In it he wrote about some Rollers that were free lofted in an old barn with no normal Roller kit boxes or short fly times.
He remarked how well they were still performing, years later. It was a surprise to many.
Cliff
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Pinwheel
123 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:52 AM
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Comment on Nicks post. What breed of non-rolling pigeon are you talking about. Based on others observations, I am willing to wager a slow flying breed that matches the rollers non-rolling flight will still allow for the rolling to continue. Now you said living with? So are they also allowed to fly and live with these non performers?
Sound Rollers: For fainting goats, they know the cause and genetics behind it as far as I know. We are still a little behind.
Based on what I am reading, the rolling definitely has some varying degrees of penetrance, as some will still roll when left alone, and others will stop when left alone. I have even heard that when non performers flown with rollers, that the the non performer i.e. homer, will roll????? a little far fetched, maybe, but any thoughts on that one?
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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roller_boi
78 posts
Jan 14, 2010
12:46 PM
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They will roll, u can bet on that, I have done this before. I have kept rollers with regular pigeons, and let them free everyday. They still roll. NO DOUBT.
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<< roller_boi >>
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Pinwheel
124 posts
Jan 14, 2010
1:38 PM
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I feel that there is indeed some that will and some that wont. Although Im not sure of the people that agreed it would deteriorate if that was from personal experience or observation. But regardless, it is interesting to hear your thoughts.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4043 posts
Jan 14, 2010
4:35 PM
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Personal experience here. I even flew Rollers with Tipplers in my youth and in time the Rollers stopped rolling.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
276 posts
Jan 15, 2010
12:50 PM
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From my own experience, recently, rollers that are flown excessively will decrease their performance (shorter depth and less frequent). I dont know about completely stopping rolling behaviour.
I believe rolling is the combination/balance between the physical stength and mental impulse. If too much impulse and insufficient physical strength, they will rolldown, crash and/or roll raggedly. If overconditioned physically they will become seldom and shorter, they have the physical strength and ability to overcome or "control" the impulse.
Since there is much variation (familial) in birds roll impulse and physical ability, there is/are those birds that can and need to be flown daily to be able to handle the roll (even free lofted) and there are those when flown the same frequency will have so much control as to limit entirely their rolling performance. I have seen birds free lofted rolling very well and regularly too. I flew some of them and they worked differently from a kitbox. Few things are universally true with these rollers. However, I believe any family of rollers if flown enough, consistently, would decrease in its performance.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Pinwheel
125 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:33 PM
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Jon. By your definition of a rolldown, can you make a rolldown increase its physical strength, thereby, equipping it to be able to have more control? To add this from My experience I had a rolldown as a kid, and I was determined to make it over come its rolldown, which I believe I did. Although that was the only roll down I had. But What I did was clipped its wings so as It couldnt take to altitude, and I simply lightly tossed it up, and as it spun down just a few feet I caught it. Then I repeated the process until the bird actually darted across the yard and landed on the loft and went in. Again, I would take it out and toss it until, it stopped rolling down and would just take off to the loft from across the yard. As the bird moulted and grew back its flights, It again went to the air, and never rolled down, until BOP got it. Although this is a vague memory, I am confident it took to the air and never hit again. FOr this reason is why I inquired about about increasing its physical strength, which I beleive my therapy did to the bird. I inquired about rolldowns a while ago but post got removed cause I was asking for culls, so my eloquence isnt the greatest. but if you guys want to experiment with that sort of therapy, try it, I would be interested in the results.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 1:36 PM
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Pinwheel
126 posts
Jan 15, 2010
1:45 PM
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Another post about rolldowns inspired another thought. For those will rolldowns, do you experience that these are relatively young birds or any age. My feeling is if it is entirely a young bird phenomena, then there may be some form of strength issue that does not develop in time for the roll "impulse" to develop. A strong impulse to roll develops way before the bird develops any sort of muscular development, endurance, etc. There for while the bird is trying to learn to fly, maneuver, control landing/take off, and whatever other flying behaviors are important, it is impeded by the premature onset of the roll. But that may be undermined if old birds fall victim to this too. Just putting that out there. But im talking with no experience of really ever training a kit with a rolldown in it.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2010 1:49 PM
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wishiwon2
277 posts
Jan 15, 2010
6:42 PM
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Pinwheel asked, "can you make a rolldown increase its physical strength, thereby, equipping it to be able to have more control?"
First, I think there are different kinds of rolldowns, or different reasons why a bird might roll to the ground. Sometimes, yes, it can be fixed through building strength. Depending on the kind of rolldown it is.
There are those birds that the first time they really roll, they spin all the way to the ground. Often times they continue rolling even after they've hit. Others during development continue to get increasingly deeper until they roll all the way down. Both these kind I dont believe can be remedied.
There are other birds that may hit the ground when taking flight, coming to land , when flying at a low height or after being locked down for an extended period of time. These kinds MAY be fixed by strengthening (higher quality of feed and increased amounts of flying). Sometimes we are the fault; flying a bird in a weakened condition due to lack of air time, being underfed, sickness, etc.
The other side of this example may be this; Birds that are given free flight and continue to roll well, will likely not handle being controlled or limited in flight or feed. Their roll will be excessive.
No matter the reason, rolling down is a fault. I will allow birds to make an occasional mistake, especially if I contributed to it (mismanagement). I make a note, regardless, and if it continues then I remove it from my flock. It will also automatically constitute grounds for not being considered as stock.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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