bigwilly
1094 posts
Jan 14, 2010
12:14 AM
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I am just curious. How many of you guys breed full brother to full sister?
BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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Ty Coleman
836 posts
Jan 14, 2010
3:37 AM
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Willy, this is a question I love to ask different flyers. I have done it with success, but I try not to do it just because of the inbreeding factor. The best response I have gotten was from Scott C. His opinion was that the faults of the family would show up and you would know if the line was worth messing with or not.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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J_Star
2233 posts
Jan 14, 2010
5:01 AM
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Here is my take on this subject:
Brother to sister or half-brother to half-sister mating are not often resorted to in the first year of breeding. These matings are more likely to be made after an established inbred strain of rollers uses an outcross. They are in the nature of gamble, in the hope that the foundation cock’s factors which the young have inherited could recombine. The theory behind this is that if the factors recombine, the breeder would rear, based on a nest of four, two young similar to the brother and sister, one similar to the grandmother and that special offspring similar to the grandfather, who is the founding cock.
Jay
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pigeon pete
488 posts
Jan 14, 2010
6:54 AM
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I've done it a few times. Last year being short of birds I had 2 good birds a cock and a hen from the same family, and I didn't have any more of that strain in my loft, so I tried them together. Still too early to see the full results.
A guy in England who won nearly everything in the early eighties bred 6 generations full brother-sister.
I don't know how many faults showed up in the process but it seemed to work for him.
Pete.
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bigwilly
1095 posts
Jan 14, 2010
10:45 AM
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Thanks guys for the info
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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Squabby*32
146 posts
Jan 15, 2010
9:30 PM
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I am interested to see what you come up with if you try this experiment Willy. Good luck.....
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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ezeedad
1089 posts
Jan 17, 2010
9:49 AM
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Hey Will,
It is true that faults can be uncovered as with any other type of inbreeding, but if the pair are excellent birds there is also the chance of producing something even better than the parents. The idea is to produce something that you can make progress with. It always comes back to selection.. of the breeders and the offspring.
Paul G
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J_Star
2234 posts
Jan 19, 2010
5:00 AM
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Paul G,
How could they produce better than the parents? Line breeding is often thought of as pairing across the board. The drawback with line breeding is that it does not increase the genetic influence. It limits them to a certain level. It is most successfully employed after a period of inbreeding, when genetic dominance of the foundation rollers has been achieved. Remember that these rollers possess only ¼ to ½ of the foundation cock factors. This means that ½ to ¾ of their genes are from a variety of ancestors. Therefore, they do not fulfill the purpose of inbreeding, which is to have at least a majority of the factors of the foundation cock.
Jay
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3757
1367 posts
Jan 19, 2010
9:53 AM
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For the newbie - Most are scared to death of inbreeding because when they do they see what is really in the lines they possess. Most cover it up by constantly out crossing and they really do not know what they have in their family gene pool because of the constant crossing. If your line is genetically sound, and the correct specimens are used you should not have to worry about anything. People worry when they get all of these weak pigeons and they do not understand that is what is in the gene pool (the specimens they posses) of the birds they are using. Most do not study genetics but listen to old wives tales. Here is a photo of a youngster that is off of a full brother and sister mating and the quality, strength and mental aspect of this birds is awesome. To top it off she was the bird Thurmond Davis really loved and was one of my best birds last year. What goes in the soup comes out especially if you start out with specimens that are not sound. One thing you must also do is every mating must be purposefull and not inbreed just to do it. "Mate the best to best regardless of relationship (WHP)."
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2010 9:55 AM
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ezeedad
1091 posts
Jan 19, 2010
12:56 PM
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Wow LaRon...!!
That is an awesome looking roller..!! Your comments are right on the money.
Paul G
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ezeedad
1092 posts
Jan 19, 2010
1:07 PM
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Jay,
Inbreeding is breeding of relatives... It's as sinple as that. So line breeding is a form of inbreeding too. Also you can't actually put a real fractional value such as 1/4 or 3/4 on a bird because the genes are distributed at random. So selection plays a major part on whay genes are being passed on to the next generation.
So when the goal is to improve your birds it is possible to breed some offspring which will be better than the parents. Maybe it will be only one bird, maybe you won't get any.. maybe you'll get more than one..... Maybe you'll get poor results. It all depends on the luck and skill of the breeder and the quality of the birds, of course.
Paul G
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Scott
2802 posts
Jan 19, 2010
1:27 PM
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Such matings are like any other matings.. there must be a purpose behind it and the birds must balance with each other..doing it just to do it is a folly. There are birds that are part of my foundation that I bred away from .. what I am getting at is when I pair my birds there is a reason why I pair what to what.
With that said.. one of the best that I bred last year came off a full Bro/sis mating .. the reason that I paired them was the cock is a tad strong but doesn't throw as strong as himself , the hen is a solid producer... and type wise they compliment each other.
I figured the full bro/sis would knock on that strength a bit and only bred one round with a single hatch..like I said he turned out to be one of my best and solid as a rock.. this year they will be paired the entire season.
Pairing up the other day I put one of my main hens on her son.. not just because .. but he was the best cock for her that I have .. being her son played in secondary.
Jay .. I was told a long time ago that I myself would breed my best .. I found this to hold true and my stock loft is a step above the foundation.. in other words there were better birds back in the gene pool (and or a combination of both sides) and drawing that out and honing around around it is key... as this happens consistancy rises.. or should rise... as LaRon stated though not all birds can inbreed/linebreed due to the faults.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2010 1:54 PM
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Scott
2803 posts
Jan 19, 2010
1:52 PM
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Laron.. that is a nice looking bird.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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3757
1368 posts
Jan 19, 2010
6:44 PM
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Paul and Scott - Thanks!
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bigwilly
1101 posts
Jan 19, 2010
7:54 PM
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Hey guys thanks for your input
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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J_Star
2236 posts
Jan 20, 2010
5:03 AM
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Great input guys. However, I think you guys missed my point and just skimmed over my posts. I said “It is most successfully employed after a period of inbreeding, when genetic dominance of the foundation rollers has been achieved." You won’t achieve that with mediocre rollers or extremely outcrossed birds. I also said in my first post “Brother to sister or half-brother to half-sister mating are not often resorted to in the first year of breeding.”
Remember that a mating, which offers only 25% chance is not very attractive to the breeder. Keep in mind that there are so many variables and ways in which the chick could be lost between egg and perch.
Paul G., yes I can put fractions because it is science of biology. I believe in science because science don’t lie.
Scott, I don’t believe it is a case of better genes in the gene pool. Although, It is possible but what I think happened is the good genes from the Cock and the good genes from the hen combined to give you better birds than the parents.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2010 5:29 AM
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Scott
2805 posts
Jan 20, 2010
8:46 AM
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Jay.. any time you are talking about a tightly bred line ( not talking about a few generations here) you most certainly can pull things out of the past.. as an example I have seen lines inbred linebred for decades throw a muff where there has never been one before or since.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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ezeedad
1093 posts
Jan 20, 2010
9:59 AM
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Jay,
Let me explain the fractions....
An offspring will have 1/2 of the genes of each parent... always. So that means half from the father. half from the mother. But when it is bred the sperm or eggs it produces can have more or less of the genes from either parent. So it can pass more genes from the father or from the mother to an offspring.
So one nestmate can carry more of grandpa's genes, and the other might have more of grandma's. The genes are shuffled during the formation of the reproductive cells. It's like if you have a deck with half clubs and half hearts...then you shuffle them up and deal half to each player. some players will get more clubs, others will get more hearts...
The biological term for this is Independent Assortment. The genes (chromosomes actually) are distributed to the sex cells independently of each other.
So a bird that is called "three quarters" will probably not really have 3/4 of the genes of one parent. It will probably have either more or less.
LaRon and Scott gave very good explanations as well as examples.
Paul G
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DeepSpinLofts
1637 posts
Jan 21, 2010
7:25 PM
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LaRon... I love that bird! I will send you a box for some of her brood. (smile)
"Once a strain is established, we can still create other strains within the strain and still maintain the same good qualities" --- William Pensom
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
1371 posts
Jan 21, 2010
8:18 PM
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Thanks Marcus.
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DeepSpinLofts
1639 posts
Jan 22, 2010
2:03 AM
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Paul G (ezeedad) made some rather interesting observations regarding genes and chromosomes. Let me further this observation with some informative data about DNA.
When crossing the DNA of different families together....and then linebreeding.... we must pay very close attention to the offsprings strong and weak points. By bridging the gap between strength & weakness we can solidify the family into a superior strain if the breeding process is done correctly.
NOTE: DNA is short for Deoxyribo-Nucleic Acid. DNA is a double-stranded helical molecule found in the cells of all organisms. DNA contains the biological, genetic instructions to build an organism... which also controls the day-to-day function of all cells. These instructions are passed down from parent to offspring via the DNA inherited from previous generations. When a roller grows inside the egg, it uses the genes within it’s chromosomes as the blueprint to how it is going to look and perform while flying.
A gene is an instruction containing section of the long, double-stranded helical molecule of DNA which contains specific instructions for some specific function such as making a protein. Ro-genes are a special type of genetic protein matter which causes certain types of pigeons to tumble or roll in flight.... or in the case of parlors on the ground.
A chromosome is an organized structure of DNA and protein that is found in cells. It is a single piece of coiled DNA containing many genes, regulatory elements and other nucleotide sequences. Chromosomes also contain DNA-bound proteins, which serve to package the DNA and control its functions.
For the record: Humans have 46 chromosomes and a pigeon has 80, nearly twice what humans have and that is why you can inbreed certain birds in order to build a solid family of performing roller pigeons. However if the matings are too recessive we end up with faults and defects like rolldowns or extra toes. Breeding best to best and matching body type to body type (along with specific feather patterns) is one way of linking similar bio-genetic traits & ro-genes together of the best possible stock.
Keep in mind folks that through genetic engineering (selective breeding) we can modify, structure and scientifically breed future kits of high velocity spinners that carry hereditary traits we all desire in our performing pigeons.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 1:52 PM
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Dave Szab
8 posts
Jan 22, 2010
5:06 AM
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Hey LaRon,
Great looking youngster!
It looks like the Bruce Cooper stuff that Ivan and I work with.
Dave Szabatura
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3757
1372 posts
Jan 22, 2010
6:28 AM
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Thanks Dave.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3519 posts
Jan 22, 2010
8:41 AM
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LaRon nice bird you have there, good luck ..
Hey Dave ,welcome back..
Dave with your line of birds what work best for you a brother sister mating ,mother to son,father to daughter?----------
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 8:42 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2335 posts
Jan 22, 2010
9:31 AM
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Very nice specimen of a roller, LaRon!
The best producing bird in my line of birds was produced by Jay Yandle...a double brother/sister mating off the foundation cock, 007, an andalusian self. Anything off that line tends to be an outstanding performer and is the source of my best Andalusians, as well as the lofts of several other guys. I have tried brother/sister matings in other birds of the general family and have not been anywhere near as succesful. Right now my best birds are half bros/sister matings off that line and those that are linebred back to those ancestors, the double bros/sis matings.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 9:33 AM
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Square
785 posts
Jan 22, 2010
10:36 AM
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Great post 3757, as well as your comments ezeedad. I think if you choose the right birds you will be on the Right Right. I started building one side of my family back in 96.. I breed one cock to three hens,,, then breed back to the foundation cock with his daughters.. The others became half bro,sis parings as well as a couple of full sibling matings to follow... The spring of 98 I was extreamly unhappy with the outcome,, I had only a handfew of birds as the majority crashed,,, However there was one cock that I produced that was Short and really fast nothing more than 5 to 15 feet,, I kept him and he is behind everything in my stock loft on that side as we speak. In the summer of 2000 I went to Alaska and Dave Henderson caretook my birds for me,,, he did a excellent job in caring for my rollers the better part of 7months. In this time my foundation cock The "oldman" had one more baby before passing on.Henderson shipped my birds to me in L.A, including this cockbird... My point is this I havent put any crosses into my fambam to date.. I havent breed week pigeons off my parings and they are really close,,Over thease years I rarely roll birds down and am happy with my work, The one down side I have found with my birds is that afew take the better part of 8months to even turnover but when they do the are really good...I have one of my stock cocks than never rolled in a year+ perfect looking bird bluebar self,, Based on my moving and situation he became a breeder...He is one of my best/consistant producing birds and he is mated to a full sister and their offspring are unreal!!!! I do think from my experiences you can breed full bro and sis,, with great results...If you start of with the Right selection...Great post and good luck in 2010
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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ezeedad
1094 posts
Jan 22, 2010
11:18 AM
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Marcus,
A correction to your post....
Humans have 46 chromosomes...
Pigeons have 80 chromosomes..
Cliff and Square(Booker),
Your examples shows the value of inbreeding. Consistency can be produced to a much higher degree.. A much higher percentage of good results can be produced when the right choices are made.
Paul G (retired biology teacher)
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2336 posts
Jan 22, 2010
11:28 AM
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Dave,
I know you have posted it before, but please tell it again. What was the source of your side of the Bruce Cooper birds? I believe you said that yours and Ivan's go back to similar lines.
Cliff
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Square
788 posts
Jan 22, 2010
11:39 AM
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Thanx Paul,, Once you have the time invested, and the results are decent/good. Its a confortable feeling,I couldent Imagine starting all over agian with another strain of birds But I am...LOL after 13 seasons/years with one family and 11 with the other Im gonna finally cross the two,,Ive put alot of thought into this for awhile,, Last season Travis crossed some of my stuff with his Pensom based birds with excellent results I was able to fly afew of them last spring and they were smokin 4 outta 4,,, It hurt to giveum back..LOL .. So Im crossing my two families and keeping that strain seperate for about 5 seasons before I determine their true worth and there will be alot of sibbling Parings....The downside??? For me it back to the pedegree system...LOL
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Dave Szab
9 posts
Jan 22, 2010
1:42 PM
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Ralph,
I have not had good luck with brother/sister matings. I prefer grandparents/grandkids, parent/offspring, uncles or aunts on nephews or nieces, or cousin/cousin.
The cock you got from me (DWS 07 766), I believe you said you were breeding out of him, is out of an Ivan cock bird (IVAN 06 664) that is pure Bruce Cooper stuff. It's father is Ivan's 800 foundation cock. LaRon might jump in here, but Ivan and I both feel that the youngster LaRon posted above is closely related to Ivan's 800 cock bird. The phenotype looks the same, and the color markings tend to flow through that line. Here are pictures of 664 and 800.
Dave
Ivan 06 664
Ivan's 800 foundation cock
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Dave Szab
10 posts
Jan 22, 2010
1:49 PM
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Cliff,
Almost all of the Bruce Cooper stuff in my birds go back to this 9939 cock bird from Ivan, which is a nephew to his 800 foundation cock. Also, a couple from 664 pictured above, but I only had him one year.
Dave
Ivan 99 9939
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 1:51 PM
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ezeedad
1095 posts
Jan 22, 2010
2:06 PM
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Hey Booker,
Why that probably happened when you crossed the two strains was the result of hybrid vigor.
When a closely bred strain is outcrossed that's what happens a lot. Those birds can be excellent as flyers but they probably won't be as consistent as breeders. So I would suggest that you don't scrap your current families if you want to keep that hard earned comfortable feeling.
Paul G
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DeepSpinLofts
1640 posts
Jan 22, 2010
2:13 PM
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Thanks Paul G for the correction.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 2:18 PM
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3757
1373 posts
Jan 23, 2010
9:55 AM
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Dave you have some really nice birds. Incidently, all of Bruce's stock are off of one cock (no that is inbreeding). Tell Ivan I said hello.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 9:56 AM
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Dave Szab
11 posts
Jan 24, 2010
6:21 AM
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Thanks Laron, I'll tell Ivan next time we talk.
Dave
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