tou2son
175 posts
Jan 16, 2010
8:59 PM
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Just wondering guys/girls,
Do you guys prefer birds with longer necks? Or do you prefer birds with shorter necks and have longer tails? Of the two options, which would you guys prefer and why would you prefer one over the other?
I know that many will think "if they roll it don't matter." I guess i'm asking for all your personal interest or opinion about it.
Mann it's been a good while since i've gotten time to come back to the site!! It's good to be back!!
Tou2son - "Fly On, Roll Hard!!"
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2010 9:00 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4063 posts
Jan 17, 2010
2:04 PM
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I don't like long necks nor do I like long tails. I would opt out on either of them. Everything should be in balance.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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donnie james
889 posts
Jan 17, 2010
2:39 PM
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hay tou2son,
i have to agree with nick .............
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Bill C
471 posts
Jan 17, 2010
4:08 PM
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I think you really have to difine what long and short it to really understand and respond.
I do not know what you are calling a long tail but I do like the birds to have a tail 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the end of the wings tips. They tend to be smother in the roll and Chan Grover had told me it helps to see the roll in them. I agree with Chan because the little extra length in them adds more space to close the open sky when the bird is arched like a U. So the slightly longer tail will help close up the gap illusion and show the roll.
I have both birds and Borges and Kiser birds have the longer tails and I also have some Jaconettes and they tend to have 1/4" tails from the wing tips and some are cobbie with the tail and wings the same length. My oppinion is the Jacs do not look as good percentage wise.
Take some time and look at all the rollers in Pensoms books and you will definately see what the tail and head should look like. That does not mean other birds are culls, just that I believe it is still the same as today with body types and wings and tails and heads.
I dont think long necks are common in rollers but a hen now and then might look sort of like that. Birmingham rollers tend to have a patruding forhead with a flat top on their heads. Few good rollers will have a skinny head with smooth top instead of a flat top. There is always the exception to the rule but just look at the pictures of guys who fly good birds and you will see them looking very simular.
I also would add that I like a large eye ceries. I mean that skin around the eyes. I find that the best rollers have this in any loft. Borges,Kiser, Urban,Henderson, Campbell from the motherload and so on. It gives the birds the expression of intelligence and alertness we like. I am not saying to breed for this but it comes with the teritory if you know what I mean? Bill C
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JMUrbon
858 posts
Jan 17, 2010
5:26 PM
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I am not going to say that I like a long bird or a short bird but rather a roller. What I will tell you is that in my birds I have found that the longer cast birds have shown me a much smoother roll. A longer cast bird does not mean a long tail however and even the longer cast birds should show good balance throughout. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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wannaroll
113 posts
Jan 17, 2010
10:57 PM
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your birds tails should only be slightly longer than their wings when you pull them back. That allows for a tight faster spin. Longer cast birds have a more graceful roll but not usually as tight or as f..a..s..t. Both types will go deep. There are exceptions to the rule of course.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 12:45 PM
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JMUrbon
859 posts
Jan 18, 2010
10:43 AM
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WEll Dave I respectfully disagree with you on this and those that have seen my birds or Dave Hendersons birds would to. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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JEFF WILSON
46 posts
Jan 18, 2010
10:57 AM
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when i joined the nbrc we where given a little book it had a artical written by jerry higgins .jerry said he likes every thing short on a roller.he said the rule of thumb i try to use is short short short and short. short wings short keel short tail short legs and a overall short body i even like short beaks.pensoms book i read said you can not get the roller to short.just telling you guys somthing i read that dosn't make it right or wrong. Jeff
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 10:59 AM
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Bill C
472 posts
Jan 18, 2010
11:19 AM
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Jeff Wilson, Pensoms book does not say, " you cant have them too short". It does say you cant have them too small. There is a difference in short and small. A slightly long cast bird or longer tail can be on a medium bird or small bird. Short is Jerry Higgins terminoloy and I'm sure that is what he likes.
Dave- Hisperia, depth has nothing to do with any charactoristics in these birds. If you breed for depth you will have it short, long, sloppy ect. Bill C
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birdman
779 posts
Jan 18, 2010
11:32 AM
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Dave,
I'm with Joe on this one and have to disagree with you.
But you're certainly entitled to your opinion...LOL
BTW, what family are you flying ?
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wannaroll
115 posts
Jan 18, 2010
12:28 PM
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I have both types of birds and I'm only reporting what I have observed with mine. I have some birds from Fred Jenkins out of Pomona, CA. and they roll their butts off, they are the long cast body type, nice birds. The birds I have from Richard Apodaca are smaller birds that have apple bodies and they are faster and tighter. Both types have good depth. Sorry if I offended anyone. If your birds kit, spin fast and go deep that's all you can ask for, no matter what the body type is.
My main family of birds are Apodacas Black Kites, Red Spangles which go back to Norm Reed, Homer Coderre. I have some 16 Blood, Steve Agents, Ruby's and I have some kit birds that are Ruby/Agent crosses. My Fred Jenkins birds have some Jac in them. The fastest spinners I have are the Kite family birds from Richard Apodaca (The Bill Pensom of the High Desert) I also have some Apodaca Andusions that I'm experimenting with.
This year will be my first attempt at breeding a bunch of birds I have aquired in the last few weeks and months.
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Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 7:52 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3825 posts
Jan 18, 2010
1:11 PM
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Theoretical exercise:
If you have two wheels, one is from a 10-speed bike and the other a tricycle wheel and they both complete a single revolution within the same time span (1 second) which one required more energy to make one complete circle?
How might this exercise relate to size in rollers and ability to attain and maintain velocity?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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birdman
780 posts
Jan 18, 2010
3:13 PM
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If we're talking rollers, and the speed of rotation is the same for both, the smaller roller will require less energy to complete the circle but will require more energy to stop at the end of the roll.
I think...LOL
I'll have to ask my kids about Kinetic energy when they get home.
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JMUrbon
861 posts
Jan 18, 2010
4:29 PM
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Tony we are not talking about those kind of differences and I am certain that if you were to handle my birds there would not be much difference in size. My birds are by no means LONG and are definately not big. I do think that they can get too small and too short. They need to be balanced. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3827 posts
Jan 18, 2010
5:38 PM
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Hey Joe, I agree, balance is important and helps for better aerodynamics. I prefer a short to medium bird, not small, but shorter in tail and head for smaller center of gravity.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Bill C
473 posts
Jan 18, 2010
6:14 PM
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Tony I understabnd your point but a 10 speed bike wheel and a tricycle wheel is not comparing the difference in rollers. The difference in small-medium birds or short and long cast rollers is not enough to completely define all rollers velocity. I do think the smaller birds will look better if they roll faster but you well know that a long cast or medium bird will look better if it rolls faster in velocity than a small roller.
So your question as to " How this exercise might relate..." I would have to say if all things equal, a smaller roller will look better than a large roller but not necessarily a long cast bird or a bird that is perhaps 1/2 ounce larger in weight, which is probably what the difference is if anything, they might even be long cast and small with out any wieght differences. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2010 6:16 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3828 posts
Jan 18, 2010
7:52 PM
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Hey Bill, I think you're missing my real point, which is the use of energy to make a revolution is greater in the larger object than it would be for the smaller in the same span of time.
A "larger" roller will by the simple fact that it is larger need to exert more energy to keep up with the smaller roller. I am not looking at weight as in your comment, but actual "size": the large wheel vs small wheel is merely to contrast the size difference and allow the reader to paint a visual image in his brain.
In a practical sense, applying this size concept to say flying competition and speaking only for myself, I would build a kit of smallish sized and balanced birds. My objective would be for frequent performers, rolling with proper velocity while not tiring out in the latter minutes due to fatigue kicking in.
Now please understand, a bit of this is theoretical, and I know that an individual bird of any size can outdo a bird of any size. But at the end of the day so to speak, I know of no one who flys and wins in competition who advocates for flying large sized rollers.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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tou2son
176 posts
Jan 19, 2010
10:52 AM
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Hey there guys,
To break what i meant down. I have this bird that has a short keel and a short tail but his neck is longer. If you put his wings back it lines up to tip of the wings. Now if you were to push his head back to his tail (like when he balls up in the roll.) My take is that, because he got a longer neck, he is able to touch his head to his tail. What is your take on a bird with a longer neck? I mean would you call that balanced? I wouldn't, but if this bird can spin with great speed, what would you make of it? I guess i've never came accross a bird like this before so i'm just curious what to do. I've had birds with longer tail but never with a longer neck.
Tou2son - "Fly On, Roll Hard!!"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3830 posts
Jan 19, 2010
12:18 PM
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Fly it and then if it has the goods over 2 flying seasons, try breeding from it. If you don't mind the longer neck in your birds and they roll right, you will be happy. Good luck.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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tou2son
177 posts
Jan 20, 2010
8:42 PM
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Thanks Guys,
I'm still new to the roller hobby so i was just wondering about the shape and balance of the bird. Thanks for your replies!!
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"Fly On, Roll Hard!!" - Tou2son
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