----------Do you prefer small or medium size rollers? I noticed in my program the spinners that are turning into my best ones are getting smaller every year, some very compact birds, what are your thoughts? Pat
Medium to large, in my case I too noticed the spinners were getting smaller every year, I started going back the other way once I started noticing the kitting was looser than before.
many readings i have found say the small compact roller have less resistance it has to roll.this hasn't been proven to me yet as i have both that can spin fast .
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3824 posts
Jan 18, 2010
12:23 PM
My opinion is that the longer you work with a family of birds (years); the tendency is there to wind up with smaller birds. However, while I get my share of smallish birds, I make sure I always hang on to some larger “boned” birds, especially cock birds, to bring the size back up. A successful breeding program will find within it: small, medium and large rollers, all playing an important part in making the whole.
The fastest spinners in my loft are the medium to small type. As long as the “large” rollers are balanced and do it right, they are gold in my loft. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
hay pat, like about 8 oz cock bird and about 7 oz hen and they spin pretty good for me................. ---------- Donny James "Fly The Best And Cull The Rest" "Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another" "Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide" 1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000 2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient 2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge 2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient "Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
All I have to say is, I have never scene a 6ft gymnast. The taller they get the slower the tumble, I guess the same applies to rollers, I don't think a roller the size of a chicken would have much velocity.
San Dun was 5' 9" that is tall for a woman as well as a gymanst...took a silver medal in the 2008 games for China....I guess she is the big bones one that Tony likes...LOL....So...like rollers..size does not matter!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4065 posts
Jan 18, 2010
2:40 PM
Me and Paul had a bird we called Super Chicken that was very large, but he could do it up real fine. Paul, Super Chicken is now living in Mountianburg, Arkansas ---------- Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4066 posts
Jan 18, 2010
2:45 PM
I prefer the birds to be about medium, but I will take them on the smallish side without hesitation. Has nothing to do with nothing, just a preference of size. If the roll was there and it was a bird the size of a Giant Runt he could be in my kit box, but probably never in my breeder loft. ---------- Just My Take On Things
One of my fastest birds Ive ever flown was a huge and i mean large bird.People would come over and couldn't believe the tight spin this bird had.I think different the small bird looks good in the loft and to many they are fast,but the velocity cant be fast if they are nothing but feathers.(I'm exaggerating but trying to make a point) what would drop faster? a feather or a rock the size of a feather? Gravity will always bring down the heavier faster common sense. Hector Coya-SGVS ----------
I know what you're saying. I've had a couple of memorable BIG birds that could really spin. However,I don't advocate breeding big birds. The vast majority of my best birds have been medium to medium/small. The big birds rolled as good becuase they were balanced for their size and had a good motor.
Hector, gravity accelerates heavy objects and light objects at the exact same rate. A feather will fall at a slower rate than a rock because the feather's shape is wide and light and this creates resistance. Roll that feather up into the size of a pea and it will fall at the same rate as the rock.
I have seen large birds roll and roll good & fast. Like Russ said though I have seen alot more smaller birds do it better. Russes demonstration is also correct. Joe ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
I honestly dont pay much attn to a birds size, however, I end up with most of my birds medium sized, perhaps a bit larger than the average. I think part of the reason for that is the conditions I live and fly in. I often have moderate to strong winds and temperatures that can be severe cold. Small birds usually dont have the strength or mass to make it here. Its not what I prefer, just what I end up with that is doing it.
Glad Russ pointed it out, Newtons law ... Objects fall at the same rate unless acted upon by another force. I believe the difference we see in the rate of fall between rollers is how and when they stroke their wings while rotating. ----------
I like them to be small, but I want some muscle mass and weight on the small frame. If I get the small size and they are too light I will have problems keeping them in good shape. They can be big and have the same problem if they dont have good muscle. ----------
They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3829 posts
Jan 19, 2010
4:01 AM
Check it:
Youtube: "As space is limited in the bell-jar, I decided to use a steel ball bearing rather than a hammer. The feather was held in place with a relay and the ball bearing was held by an electromagnet. The two were powered from the same supply so that they could be de-energized, simultaneously dropping the feather and the ball bearing.
The ball bearing weighs 67g and is 1 inch in diameter. The feather is less than 0.1g and does not register on my balance. It is 73mm long. I placed some crumpled up aluminium foil under the ball bearing to absorb the impact and prevent it from rolling or bouncing inside the bell-jar." ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
I agree that objects fall at the same rate,However the resistance,may play a part, I have in the most part medium size birds,but that big bird was as fast if not faster than many of my smaller birds. I figured that a small bird in its rotation would take longer to start dropping than a heavier bird (large). Just an idea,,LOL Hector Coya_SGVS
Our birds do not roll in a vacuum. Air is the other force acting upon them, so, Newtons Law, bless his cotton socks, is not a lot of help to us. A cannon ball and a small steel ball may drop at the same rate, but take a steel cannon ball and a ballon blown to exactly the same size, then a ball made of polystyrene then a wooden ball. As you try progessively heavier materials then the second object will approach or overtake the speed of the cannon ball. Hence a lighter bird will drop slower than a heavier bird with the same dimensions. Drop a fat pigeon and it will drop faster than a starving bag of bones and feathers. To be honest this is a misguided point about a pointless phenomenon, in my view anyway. I couldn't care less if a bird drops faster, in fact after due consideration I might value it less. It is the speed of rotation that is more important. If guys talk about fast rollers, then most are talking about rotational speed, but one or two others may mean dropping speed, the the conversation can turn a little bizare at times as we talk at cross purposes lol I am no scientist, but as a layman I would guess that strength versus centifugal force would be more relevant than Newtons law. A large bird with good muscle coordination and strenth may roll better than a smaller weaker (or larger)bird, but given the same power to weigh ratio they should perform about the same. Genrally speaking, very large birds do not roll as well as small to medium birds. However, I would breed off a larger bird rather than a very small one. A very small bird may be genetically small, but it may also have taken a setback in the egg or in it's development as a young bird. A larger bird is more likely to be a stronger pigeon with a superior constitution. It is unlikely that it will breed birds larger then itself. It may make a better parent, more able to cover youngsters. I prefer what I would call mediun size birds for the stock loft. Pete
Oh, and before Newton, they all thought apples fell off the trees in an upwards direction, how weird. It's a bit like the Greeks, who thousands of years ago inventing thinking, only they called it philosophy, which is thinking about thinking, which is also weird when you think about it! Pete.
Great points and thoughts but with the smaller birds it seems I get more floaters and a faster bird,(spinning not dropping)which is where I want my program to go,once you see a bird float, its hard not to admire it! (Thanks Doc) ---------- Pat
Pat.. I find that too small is just that too small..put a kit of small(not weak) ones together and it will probably be a team that will have a hard time not raking the stratosphere it takes less effort to stay aloft..or they easily get blown to the next county... in other words there is more that we want to look at than just the roll.
Also..we can talk about physics and bicycle wheels all we want but the fact it it doesn't apply to rollers.. illusion is such a huge part of what we see ...I have seen large birds wrap up as tight as a small bird. As for myself I find truely small birds rarely last in my old bird team (talking years not monthe's).. I want a medium size bird with a little cast to it.. but I want that cast in the feather not the body.. the last thing I want is short and cobby. ---------- Scott Campbell
Scott,good point! maybe I should start breeding back to larger birds to get a standard size!nice to hear different thoughts from different people!Blown away got me thinking,because here in the East it gets windy! ---------- Pat
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3833 posts
Jan 20, 2010
9:34 AM
Hey Pete, let me help you stay focused, no need to guess or wander in your thoughts...lol
The purpose of posting this video is to demonstrate that it is not weight that makes an object fall faster than another object, but its level of air resistance.
So What? Here is the question posed by pat:
“…I noticed in my program the spinners that are turning into my best ones are getting smaller every year, some very compact birds, what are your thoughts?”
So, if pat66 continues down his current path based on breeding his smaller and smaller birds, they will eventually deteriorate. Its not that his birds are “small”, its that they demonstrate less air resistance. Now then, a “large” bird that can “ball up tight” i.e. create less air resistance, in my opinion, can and should be used as a breeder to maintain the overall integrity of his strain. Lacking a sufficiently sized bird, he will eventually be forced to bring in such an out-cross with no guarantee that it will work to preserve the traits he already has.
See my post 3824 to see my initial response; the video is to double down on my point of “air resistance”. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3834 posts
Jan 20, 2010
9:39 AM
Hey Scott, "illusion" or not, air resistance is a factor in the roll. Here's one for you, why does a baseball travel farther on a warm day as to a cold day? ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Tony ..why is an arrow faster at higher altitudes ? none of this has anything to do with a living structure built around it's own individle mechanics stroking it's wings. ---------- Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3835 posts
Jan 20, 2010
10:04 AM
Answer: Less air resistance.
Of course it does. IF you don't want to acknowledge that or don't want to take the time to understand it, I don't care, but it floats my boat! ;-) ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
I still have my original pensoms,but in the last 3 years have been breeding best to best,which is bro-sis,cousins-nephews neices- original parents have been just dormant,wanted to see where it would take me , so I could go back to the original parents which are medium birds!but the performance has excelled! ---------- Pat
Tony, Most of what you said agrees fully with what I was saying, except that I don't think you can divorce the weight of an object from it's air resisitance. Yes an object with less air esistance will drop faster, all thing being equal, but if the objects are weighted differently then all things are not equal. A feather, and an exact copy of a feather made of wood or metal will all have the same air resistance, but I don't care what anybody says, they will fall at different speeds. Same air resistance - different weights = different rates of decent through air. It may be scientificaly provable that I am wrong, but it's my gut instict that a lead feather (if it were possible to make one out of metal with all the intricate parts that make up a real feather) will fall faster than a real one BUT my main thrust was that whatever your belief, the rate of decent that is influenced by the birds bouyancy, well that factor is largely irrelevant to me. Unless a bird is so heavy, compared to it's air resistance that it drops like a stone, or so light that it gets blown off the straight down path, then this Newtonian debate is hardly relevant. If you are breeding from rollers that produce good rollers that physicaly resemble their parents and you are getting good percentages, then they are not too big or too small. However birds getting smaller and smaller, may indicate a reduction in vigour as we both have stated. The speed of rotation, as opposed to speed of decent however, is another matter. If a bird was so light or heavy that it couldn't spin properly, then you have a problem. It is not usually the mass, or the boyancy, or the weight, or whatever we choose to call it that is the only slowing factor, it is also the lack of driving power to propel the spin. High air resistance due to poor wing action will also make a high speed roll less likely. Weight will become a factor when a bird is so light that it loses any flywheel effect. This helps the roll to continue, and keeps it smooth. As with most things, it is having the right balance between all the relevant factors. So, a bird may be an ideal body size and shape, it may be in ideal condition and weight, but if it's wings are too broad, it will always stuggle to perform an ideal roll. Many good rollers, roll well despite the fact that they could be smaller , or bigger, heavier, lighter, less abundantly feathered, hold the wings higher etc etc. As long as we recognise this, we can still progress using such birds in our breeding programe as we search for the ideal. YITS, Pete
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3836 posts
Jan 20, 2010
11:23 AM
Hey Scott, you are right, it is more complicated, but I am simply addressing this one aspect of the question pat66.
Other factors effecting performance to some degree:
Conditioning Feather quality Long cast Short cast old/young bird properly trained and managed genetic potential birds character >< or X or A or H or (-) style wing switching depth continue list:
---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3837 posts
Jan 20, 2010
11:33 AM
Hey Pete, so we agree, in addition to proper rolling birds, pat66 needs to also consider proper size as a factor when pairing his birds. Thanks. Hope your birds are doing well. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Pat said "Great points and thoughts but with the smaller birds it seems I get more floaters and a faster bird,(spinning not dropping)which is where I want my program to go,once you see a bird float, its hard not to admire it!"
That's what I want out of my birds, tight and fast and the smaller the better, gravity will do it's thing.
Pat, you haven't seen wind like they see in Southern California. You have to fly in the morning because most of the time its blowing in the afternoon.
