nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4114 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:09 AM
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Scott, In your judges report you talked about birds that couldn't exit the roll cleanly and correctly not being scored and were "junk". Could you explain what your understanding of cleanly and correctly?
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Scott
2838 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:31 AM
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Sure Nick.. clean and correctly is that they pop out of the roll without any slop from fighting to come out of the roll..tailsit.loopty doos from coming out facing facing wrong.
It is worth noting that some young pigeons are going to have some issues when developing.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Robert Pelham
35 posts
Jan 30, 2010
9:05 AM
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I champion can roll fast and tumble also tail sit check the Pensom Book.Much Respect. Robert
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JMUrbon
883 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:10 AM
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A tail setter doesnt last at my house. Young or old. I have bred away from them for years so I rarely get them any more. I would also humbly disagree with Pensoms observation on this subject. A champion should be VERY consistant in style and speed. The only varience should be in the depth and that is dependant upon the height and flying conditions. JMHO. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 7:49 PM
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Sound Rollers
199 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:00 PM
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Robert, what page did you find that on?
John
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2361 posts
Jan 30, 2010
2:54 PM
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Scott's explanation is one that is as correct as can be . If we look at the historical writings, there are references to faults listed and they are very similar to what Scott posted.
If there are questions in this regard, it not so much Scott's judging, as gray areas in the fly rules. In this instance, we have more of a BLACK HOLE than a gray area. By that I mean, we have NO mention in the fly rules anything about exiting the spin, in the 20 bird rules.
The Judge knows about faults but few new flyers are aware of all the faults. These faults should be listed in the fly rules.
Example:
Faults that if observed, can cause the judge to not score a bird (s) spin.
Fighting its way out of the spin. It looks rough and uneven at the end.
Flying away from the kit after ending its spin.
Tail riding ending the spin.
Hovering or falling at the end of a spin.
We can add more to this list of faults as well as, define a proper ending to the spin.
The bird should Pop out of the spin as when a parachute pops open, and without hesitation, head in the direction of the kit.
Just a few thoughts.
Cliff
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4115 posts
Jan 30, 2010
3:28 PM
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Cliff, Maybe it is something you can present to the president and EC. We do need to close some holes to be a learning tool and in defense of fly judges. Some key decisions can be made like deciding what wing positions are acceptable and what is not; what is the first bird down considered and what is the restrictions about it returning to the kit if any. Well defined and thought out rules can put more of us on the same page.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 3:29 PM
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Ty Coleman
851 posts
Jan 30, 2010
3:34 PM
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"Well defined and thought out rules can put more of us on the same page"
Amen Nick !!!!!
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2362 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:32 PM
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Nick
I have but one vote on the EC but I will try my best to support positive changes, that will reflect clearer and better defined fly rules. I can only vote on what the EC is given to discuss and vote on by the President. I can't make policy. If you have time, It may help to make your concerns known to the NBRC President. I have already done so. He alone makes the decisions on what the EC discusses. I have high hopes for this EC and if they get to address the Fly rules, we can come together and get a quorum agreement for the betterment of the NBRC flyers/judges.
I agree with the problems you made mention of, that they need to be addressed. I will add my ideas whenever I can in those discussions. I look forward to many of us sharing ideas and working together.
Cliff
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Scott
2839 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:43 PM
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Robert.. that is simply a cull that is having problems coming out of the roll.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2840 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:47 PM
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Guys.. the rules aren't the problem.. some flyers just need to be educated on what a good pigeon is... just like many of us were.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 9:34 PM
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155
1177 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:34 PM
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Guys.. the rules aren't the problem.. "flyers" just need to be educated on what a good pigeon is
well maybe we all need to go to scott's loft and see whats he is talking about (good pigeons)I will love to go see scott birds fly.....
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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JMUrbon
885 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:59 PM
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Jose I am sure Scott will be flying in the WC this spring and I am quite sure you are invited. He has always been a put up or shut up kinda guy. Much respect goes out to Scott for his ability to put up a quality kit year after year. Let me tell you something about Scott. I was around not so long ago when Scott was just beginning to fly in competition. He rose to MF status faster than anybody that I know on the MF list. You guys can say what you want and think what you want but the fact remains that you absolutely cannot deny his fly record. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sound Rollers
200 posts
Jan 30, 2010
9:05 PM
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Its sounds like your trying to preserve roller quality and fly competition at the same time, can that be done? Should their be two different types of Birmingham Rollers i.e. team and individual performers?
John
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JMUrbon
886 posts
Jan 30, 2010
9:15 PM
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It is a hereditary trait for rollers to perform together as well as kit together. Some just do it better than others. Realistically a good manager can make mediocre birds look good. That being said the same can be said for a poor manager taking the best kit in the country and in less than a month can turn them into an inconsistant mess. Rollers tend to do their best performance when accompanied by other good rollers. Four birds in the air will rarely show you the kind of performance that a kit will. You should always be striving for the best rollers and the fact that they perform as a group is just a bonus. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
2841 posts
Jan 30, 2010
9:27 PM
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Jose.. my birds can embarass me in a heart beat.. trust me.. but when they are dog crap I don't expect someone to score them.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2842 posts
Jan 30, 2010
9:33 PM
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John..Of course the breed has to be preserved for quality.. every member in the team gets there for it's individual qualitys (or should) .. teams that work do so because that is what the Birmingham Roller does.. those that don't are either stiffs or a tad un-stable and have too quick of a trigger.
Joe is right.. the more good birds in a team the more they feed on each other .. put a good bird with chumps and it will act like a chump most of the time.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4117 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:06 PM
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Scott, to wait for once a year to get properly trained by judges makes getting properly train a lot longer process than necessary. If the rules were more defined and more extensive the same flier can be in the proper training all year round. We will not be plagued with a wide differences of judge preferences of performance. The flier and the judge will be closer to being on the same page. That is how you can get the bar raised for everybody.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Mongrel Lofts
639 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:40 PM
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Robert,
When I judged your birds in the WC prelims some years back. You pulled a little dark check W/f badge off the nest and threw her up with the kit. That was a fine fine rolling pigeon. I didn't relize at the time that she couldn't Plate roll, twizzle and tail set. What a shame. I thought she was top shelf! LOL
Seriously, what ever happened to that hen and did you make a family from her. Just wondering as she was one of the best I seen on the fly.
If I remember correctly, she was a cross of Dave Sanchez's Houghton line and his Sparks line. Is this correct? KGB
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fhtfire
2461 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:52 PM
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Cliff,
Make that two on the EC that would support fly rules that would remove the gray areas and actually put into WRITING what a good team pigeon should do..before the roll..during the roll and after the roll. Scott is right the rules are less the problem the education..but to educate you have to have something in writing for fliers to fall back on....you dont always have a MF in your back pocket to pull out and ask questions...but defined rules will answer the questions..]
Rock and ROLL!!!
Paul
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Ty Coleman
852 posts
Jan 31, 2010
5:30 AM
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Paul that sound like 4 on the EC then. I'm sure Nick and I would support it also if we could get it tabled.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
853 posts
Jan 31, 2010
5:39 AM
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Joe, I took a close look at Scotts MF award and the time it took him to do it and there is no doubt he is on his game. His award was achieved without local club scores and I believe was done in 10 years in the major fly's. I just wish the MF point program had not been changed last year and left at the same level for all of us but I've still got my sites on Scott's record.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Robert Pelham
38 posts
Jan 31, 2010
10:12 AM
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Thanks you I love the birds with springs on the wing.That is a good example.the sparks hen behind that bird was at wess pet shop I knew Daves bands and I bought her for two dallors got home and called Dave and ask about her and all said she only rolled only 5ft for two years so put in my kit after a few weeks she came in Dave had to see it 40 to 50ft three times a min with spring on the wing see was fast to get in to the kit and roll off the front of the kit.but the topic some times we feed are birds right when they come in and working birds don't get a lot feed and the next day they roll like shit are roll down.it is management.I had a bird that hit on the way in all the time.but see could out roll most birds super fast and real deep some times as deep as 100ft never came down early some said see was a champ but see would hit on the way in when I stocked her keal broken in three places I never see a hen like that again.I lent to A new comer to help him and he got lock up and wife let the all the birds die I jumped the fence and saw it with my own two eyes.
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155
1178 posts
Jan 31, 2010
5:53 PM
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Jose.. my birds can embarass me in a heart beat.. trust me.. but when they are dog crap I don't expect someone to score them
I know what you mean scott...good luck on the world cup fly...
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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fhtfire
2463 posts
Jan 31, 2010
8:31 PM
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Not only that Ty.....Scott did not have one kiddy eleven bird fly either. All his wins are 20 bird.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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wishiwon2
287 posts
Jan 31, 2010
9:40 PM
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Its sounds like your trying to preserve roller quality and fly competition at the same time, can that be done? Should their be two different types of Birmingham Rollers i.e. team and individual performers?
John
Yes it can be done. It is the goal of nearly every competitor I know.
No, In my opinion there shouldnt be 2 types. Those that have birds performing individually ought to work to raise outstanding birds that work together and those who have birds working together ought to strive to improve the quality of the birds inthose kits. Its one and the same and in my opinion is what makes a Birmingham roller great ... individual quality and ability to work together as part of a team.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Roll Down
84 posts
Jan 31, 2010
9:48 PM
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fhtfire:
"Not only that Ty.....Scott did not have one kiddy eleven bird fly either. All his wins are 20 bird."
Wow! Not a LOL to go with a statement like that so I guess you didn't mean it as a joke?
I'm sure the past winners of the 11 bird fly are impressed.
I wonder how many fliers have won both the 11 bird fly and the 20 bird "kiddy" fly?
Wouldn't it be very easy...just pick out the 11 best birds from your 20 bird kit and win them both?
Of course it usually won't work out this way for several reasons, number one being any rolling faults
( such as sloppy rolls ) would show up more in the 11 bird fly.
I think both flys have their place in the hobby.
In my humble opinion of course.
George Dring.
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Scott
2844 posts
Feb 01, 2010
2:27 PM
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George.. I think that what Paul was getting at is up until last year the top 10 eleven bird finalists got the same MF points as the top 10 twenty bird finalists even though there was over twice the competion...it was a loop hole that finaly got shut.
Actually George that is exactly how it is done.. the eleven bird fly is mostly supported by 20 bird flyers doing exactly that.. sloppy rolls shouldn't be counted in either fly.. and if a judge is scoreing slop in the 20 bird I can garrantee you that he is scoring the same in the 11 bird.
(Wouldn't it be very easy...just pick out the 11 best birds from your 20 bird kit and win them both?
Of course it usually won't work out this way for several reasons, number one being any rolling faults
( such as sloppy rolls ) would show up more in the 11 bird fly.
I think both flys have their place in the hobby)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Roll Down
86 posts
Feb 01, 2010
3:13 PM
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Scott: I certainly didn't mean to "Hijack" this thread, but I was just taking exception to the 11 bird flys being called "kiddy flys."
If it was meant to point out an injustice in the MF program as is, I can see the reasoning there.
I would be most proud to someday place highly in an 11 bird fly judged by someone who knows a good roller when he sees it, and my hat is off to all who have done so in the past.
Regards, Geo.
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pigeon pete
510 posts
Feb 01, 2010
3:24 PM
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Unless you live hundreds of miles from other flyers, any flyer who is serious about the hobby will not wait for 12 months to see how to judge a kit of rollers.
If you have a club fly, go around the fly and educate yourself. Join in the convoy for the WC, go and see your WC regional winner fly in the finals.
Many judges will already have a marker, but keep offering to be judges assistant. Do this with 2 or 3 good judges and you will learn more than can be learned from posting on forums.
Pete.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 3:25 PM
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JMUrbon
887 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:53 PM
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Good post Pete. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4121 posts
Feb 01, 2010
4:56 PM
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You're spot on, Pete
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
289 posts
Feb 01, 2010
7:34 PM
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Petes got it right. Thats the best way to learn. It is the fliers responsibility to learn what good is and how to see and identify it.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2363 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:48 AM
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George
Yes, that is one way to pick an 11 bird team. Both the 20 and the 11 are competitions made available by the NBRC. Many 20 bird flyers support the 11 bird fly, and many 11 bird flyers also support the 20 bird fly. Both are interesting ways to compete with Roller pigeons.
Scott
The Master Flyer program has had it share of mis- steps, but now we hope that we have fixed many of the inequities that plagued it in the past.
As the last judged just proved, no slop was scored in the 20 bird fly or the 11 bird fly, IMHO. Smile.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2364 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:57 AM
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While I agree, that watching kits being judged is a valuable learning experience, there can be a large variation in the judges personal standards. As was brought to our attention, some judges hold kits to higher/lower personal standards than others. The NBRC should define the limits of all "standards" being judged, then hopefully, the wide swings in scores should become less extreme; and more importantly, the flyers would have less misunderstandings with the fly rules.
While we are on the topic..... I have been to finals judging where the judge assigned out birds to be observed by bystanders. This is a concern to many. Should bystanders participate in helping the judge keep up with judging duties? Must we now make a list of items that ONLY the judge can call?
Right or wrong, I feel only TWO EYES should make all calls, that can have any impact the scoring. Reason: if we allow this practice to continue, the idea of consistency will come under close scrutiny. We have no control over the bystanders. We do pick the judge and he and only he should make all calls on everything that can influence the final score.
Cliff
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J_Star
2250 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:46 AM
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What if those eyes require perscription glasses and he wasn't wearing any (lol). Should we ask for a certified doctor OK before the start of the judging (lol).
I don't want to sign my name to this post (lol)...
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Robert Pelham
47 posts
Feb 03, 2010
7:11 PM
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Mongrel lofts what's up Kenny I did not that was you thanks .yea that was a good one I have of those they are some smokers they are behind almost every thing.what thy were saying about going on the WC flys was good but if they get in a club that is where it is at.my first club was the CRS and they would use three judges and round it off everbody had a turn to judge.and trained great judges.When I was in the SGVS I ask them if they wanted to try it and a way flew.Much Respect. Robert Pelham
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