Scott
2845 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:37 PM
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While reading the fly report that Cliff put out in the bulletin I read from the 11 bird champ that he didn't think he would do well because the judge was so "tight" I got a real chuckle out of that because if I didn't judge by the standard that I did he would not have won... chew on that one... the same holds true with the 20 bird champ.
PS I don't consider myself "tight" or tough.. I just want them doing it correctly.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
574 posts
Feb 03, 2010
10:13 PM
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Scott
I wish I could have you under my kit, you could tell me if I am getting it right.
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RT Williams
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TT
GOLD MEMBER
495 posts
Feb 03, 2010
10:20 PM
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Bottom line Scott, you did a great Job, Your way of thinking is something we all need to learn.
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Tony.H...
"Color is not an option"
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4123 posts
Feb 03, 2010
10:27 PM
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Scott, you are saying that if you hadn't judged by your standard that neither one of the champions would have been champion. Can you tell us who may have been the champion if someone else was the judge?
I don't know how we should take that.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Mongrel Lofts
641 posts
Feb 03, 2010
11:17 PM
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Nick,
Scott is just saying that he only judged decent quality rollers as scorable. If he had not, then poor quality rollers that should not be judged could easily win. You sure try hard to not understand judging only decent rollers and not junk. I hope you can figure out how to take this. Since you don't seam to understand Scott judged decent rollers, not culls. How hard can that be to understand? Scott made sure quality rollers, not culls are the National champion winners. He did this using the rules of the NBRC as they are written! Would you have culls judged that didn't meet the judges standard of adequate? That would be breaking the NBRC rules and you surely wouldn't want that would you? KGB
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4124 posts
Feb 04, 2010
12:13 AM
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Kenny, There is no universal understanding of what is a cull in the rules nor in the minds of Birmingham Roller breeders and fliers.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Scott
2846 posts
Feb 04, 2010
8:33 AM
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Nick.. Kenny explained it well for you.. I think where the confusion for you is that there most certainly is a universal understanding understanding on what a bird rolling like a cull is .. some just aren't educated on it... I am not meaning this as sarcasm so please don't take it that way.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 10:41 AM
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Roll Down
87 posts
Feb 04, 2010
9:49 AM
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Scott:
I think maybe Nick is trying to yank your chain a little bit.( ? )
I also think that you are doing the hobby a great justice by judging them by the quality of the spin and not just the depth.
I hear guys ooh and ahh all the time while watching kits and it amazes me that a lot of them just think if a bird drops 30 feet or so, it's a good roller!
You may become known as the "Simon Cowell of the W.C. Judges," but I hope you continue to educate on what some of these families of birds out there can really do in the air.
GEO. D.
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Scott
2847 posts
Feb 04, 2010
10:38 AM
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No Nick.. not by "my" standard .. by a standard that represents quality within the breed.
If I judged by a lower standard there are a few that come to mind due to low quality activity.. but no I won't name them.
Watch the difference between the high scores this year in the W/C regionials vrses where they end up in the finals with a quality judge.. there is a reason for it.
(Scott, you are saying that if you hadn't judged by your standard that neither one of the champions would have been champion. Can you tell us who may have been the champion if someone else was the judge)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 10:39 AM
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donnie james
917 posts
Feb 04, 2010
11:10 AM
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hay scott,
i never seen you judge but yet reading your post i can say that your a better judge then most judges out and nick i believe by reading your posts that you are looser judge in judging the birds ........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Bill C
484 posts
Feb 04, 2010
12:39 PM
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I can see what Scott said the first time. Nick you might have to re-read it again. Knowing Scott helps.
If Scott was scoring waterfall, or anything that moved up there, the outcome would have been different. The funny part is the guy complaining of an accurate judge actually won. LOL
Nick, if you look at the 2001 or 2002 NBRC magazine winner, you will find the 2nd place up had more breaks, Something like 43 and the winner had 38 breaks but had higher Quality multiplyers. That better quality made the difference over an active less qualtiy kit.
That is What Scott is saying.
Donny, I think that is a bit harsh. Nick will one day if not already appreciate quality, fast rollers over simple activity. It takes getting around to see many kits of rollers though. Bill C
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2366 posts
Feb 04, 2010
12:48 PM
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Scott
If I didn't know better, I would suspect you are fishing for compliments! LOL! Many flyers have publicly stated, including myself, you did a fine job judging the finals. But you keep going out of your way to find statements where a man either misunderstood what the rules were or did not appreciate something you said.
You and a whole lot of other judges did the best they could to follow our poorly written, vague, fly rules where any judges personal standards are that particular competition's, standard.
All the judges that went before you, judged the very best they knew how and used the exact same standards set forth in the fly rules, just as you did.
The only difference as you yourself pointed out, not all judges personal standards are the same and because of that fact there are variations in actual scoring from judge to judge. We all know that and accept that.
You have joined a very elite group of judges that have gone out of their way to support the NBRC and take the time to evaluate the finals qualifiers. Everyone of those men deserve our respect and gratitude, EVERYONE OF THEM. I will go way out on a limb here and bet you every finals judge had a few flyers who did not agree 100% with every call made. That is the subjective part of judging. By the way, the 11-bird winner was not complaining......
Cliff
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Bill C
485 posts
Feb 04, 2010
12:53 PM
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This is also a reason that I disagree with people who say competition hurts the true birmingham roller if we stay focused on the quality multiplyers in the flys. The best kit will always win over an over active kit that is not really doing much more than tumbling with a few rollers in the mix.
There is no excuse not to fly unless you cant afford it. If you want to say you have the real birmingham rollers then flying them is the way to promote the real deal and guys will value a great awsome kit over an over active one 9 out of 10 times. Just that many have not seen one.
I apologize to Rober Pelham for mistaking him for someone esle.
Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2010 7:28 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2367 posts
Feb 04, 2010
1:03 PM
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Nick
Scott's answer is valid as is your question. It is my nature to try to draw attention to the Positive rather than the negative. So with that in mind, perhaps we need to "EDUCATE"....defining the minimum standard where judging begins, and in doing that, we will define birds that do not meet a written fundamental NBRC standard. One that will take into consideration depth, revolutions/velocity, wing positions, overall impression of quality, as well as any faults that can cause a bird or birds to not be scored.
With the wealth of experience between two master flyers, I am sure they could educate us on any questions we may have. If we could incorporate that wisdom into the NBRC fly rules, I am hopeful that many of the gray areas would become less and less in the overall flyer population.
Cliff
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Scott
2849 posts
Feb 04, 2010
1:11 PM
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Cliff.. I wasn't fishing for anything .. I'm more secure with myself than that .. I simply threw it out there to generate thought.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Bill C
486 posts
Feb 04, 2010
1:28 PM
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I dont know Cliff about fishing here? Scott might like controvery as well as I do. It helps to debate issues. I do with the Bible all the time and most do not want to compare scripture with scripture if they are happy with what they believe already.
I can say this much, and might ruffle some feathers?
When Eldon Chaney judged, Scott didn't seem to mind the 980 score or 900+ score he got. He said," They did better than I thought they were going to".
Now that being said it might just as well be true, but Scott with complainig about 2000+ scores, I would have expected you to say," They did great but not that good... to take 900+ points".
We will always have lose judging and accurate judging. Most all judges I have seen over 10 years have been very consistant. Epecially our Judge that gave everyone across the board 1.1 on every single kit. He did not know how to do the math and that was a prelim fly also. LOL The best kits still won that day and went on to fly in the W/C.
Anyway, I think Scott is a fine judge and there are people who want high scores and they will always have thier favorite judge in for the pre-lims. Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 1:31 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4125 posts
Feb 04, 2010
1:46 PM
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We are all assuming that one judge was the key to "raising the bar" of the Birmingham Roller and that we need not look at his efforts as a failed project. I have seen judges remove the excitement of competition because of self perceived ideas of what raising the bar curtails.
I ain't fishing for nothing; not even a fight. I am just popping a flare to shed some light on why we have such large discrepancies between what one judge declares as good and another not. Scott even said that those who won when he judged would not have won if someone else was the judge. Where do we take that?
In the past, I was totally satisfied that the winners in my region where in fact the best kits flown in the competition. I may not have agreed with the total score, but the best kits were always chosen.
Now, Scott says that if someone else was judging there would have been a different winner. Are the rest of us so far off that we would have not chosen the best kit?
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%*; A Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Bill C
487 posts
Feb 04, 2010
3:35 PM
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Nick didn't we just have a judge from South Africa who's highest score was around 300 and the same as Scott Campbell.
You also have judges that score around 2000 points even in a big fly if they are the judge.
Yes there is that big a difference in judges. Come on Nick, I dont understand your point anymore
You said," Are the rest of us that far off." You are on the left, right, or middle of judging no matter who you are.
Surely you have to understand that some judge anything moving in the sky and call it a break and I am not exaggerating here.
Like I said debating is a good way to learn, seeing boths sides of an issue.
Can you define where your standard is when judging or looking for a judge. I have not judged before but I do agree that the judge should call a break, a clean, all birds rolling at the same time, all rolling in good qualtily and style to a minimum of 10 feet.
Then you have the 1.1 1.2 1.3 ect 1.6 depth and qualilty showing the best of the best.
You have to have a standard, Nick, what is yours. I know the rules are already written, Judges have some leeway, as to what they consider scoreable.
I just cannot believe you have not seen a waterfall or simply action of young kit birds and have a judge call it a break. At the very least it would get a 1.0 quality or not be counted at all.
This is nothing new here! Bill C PS I am sure your regions best kits will also win, if they are infact the best kit that peticular year.
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JMUrbon
891 posts
Feb 04, 2010
6:13 PM
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Look at it this way guys. You take a overly active yet marginal kit as far as depth and quality goes and a judge that looks for what he sees as scorable and a 5 bird break could possible turn into a 10 or 15. That just took that 5 points and doubled or trippled it. Not including the bonuses. So the fact is a judge that is more critical to what he sees as scorable depth and quality would have a much lower score. Not saying either is correct without physically viewing them but one could have a score of barely 100 while the other is close to 1000. I always have felt that if I give out a 1/2 or 3/4 turn they had better dam well deserve it. I seen 3/4 turns scored a few years ago in the WC finals that I wouldnt have even given a scorable break to. IT all depends on the judges standards and how well he is able to percieve a scorable roll considering depth and style.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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orx300
6 posts
Feb 04, 2010
6:20 PM
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I watched Scott judge a few kits in vegas and i thought he was loose, but that's just my opinion.
Nick
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steve49
400 posts
Feb 04, 2010
6:44 PM
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what do you mean by loose? i'm still learning here. i did compete this fall for the first time, and teh winds were over 25mph, which really affected them negatively. i'm sure the conditions change from one fly to the next, so higher or lower scores could also be influenced by weather too, right?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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JMUrbon
892 posts
Feb 04, 2010
6:47 PM
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Absolutely Steve and of course a little luck. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
2850 posts
Feb 04, 2010
7:17 PM
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Aussie Nick.. you are absolutly right.. honestly I was further on the other side of the line than I liked.. and it showed on the marginal one's ( but I had to get a ride to the airport after the fly LOL)... also there was far more to this fly than those couple of kits.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 7:25 PM
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Bill C
488 posts
Feb 04, 2010
8:22 PM
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ORX300, LOL that was truely funny, even if you were serious! LOL I love it when I laugh outloud that way.
Nick Siders, what did you think of Joe Urbans post. He is right on the money with this one. I do look at it that way.
Have a good one guys. Bill C
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macsrollers
262 posts
Feb 04, 2010
8:28 PM
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So what Scott is saying is that in Vegas he judged looser but that didn't matter overall? One of our qualifiers nipped a few others out for 9th place in the finals, so how could that be insignificant. Seems this would have been better left unsaid rather then diminish the 9th place finish or place wonder in those that he nipped out.
But it would have been a long walk to the airport and the cab fare would have broke the NBRC bank so I guess Scott did what he had to do! (Joke ;) Enjoy your next fly! Don M.
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Scott
2851 posts
Feb 04, 2010
8:38 PM
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No Don that is not at all what I am saying .. you can't do that .. what I am saying is that I gave the benefit of doubt on marginal breaks and Nick picked up on it.. and I can assure you that I did it accross the board.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 8:47 PM
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macsrollers
264 posts
Feb 04, 2010
9:19 PM
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Thanks for clarifying Scott. Regardless, I saw how you judged and I have no doubt in my mind that the best kit of Birmingham Rollers put up for you to judge
ended up as the champion kit! Having Hans Roussow and then you come thru to judge based on what I feel is the right standard of what a Birmingham Roller rolling should be was a positive experience, at least for me! Even though my birds I flew for you (not a qualifying kit) did very little to show that standard! Not the birds fault. They were a 1.4 quality minimum team, my fault for not giving them the opportunity to show that!
Enjoy your next fly! Don M. LVRC
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Scott
2852 posts
Feb 04, 2010
9:26 PM
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Don.. I can't begin to tell you how many flys that I have had just like that or worse.. and then here and there I get lucky with a decent one... it is worth noting that from what I saw Hannes didn't give the marginal breaks.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2010 9:27 PM
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SpinCityRollers
331 posts
Feb 04, 2010
9:43 PM
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I believe you were loose I wouldnt of gave me shit either they flow like seagulls and the were so off it was ashamed but I thank you for giving them what you did. I was just hoping to do ok after the circumstances.
but believe this I will be ready next time
and believe me I hear you guys are saying vegas dont have no roll !!!!!(AFTER ONE FLY)ok that fine its ok with me as long as am happy in my own back yard that is what matters and the guys in my club can compete with the best of them hands down.
Scott you were one of the best judges we ever had and pretty dam funny too
(sure glad they call it Judging that mean each will have his own take on things)100- 3000 pts it doesnt matter
Just enjoy your birds and cherish the flytime you get no matter what you dont have to prove anything to anyone as long as you believe.
Madmax
And Remember the LAS VEGAS TRIBUTE SHOW
is In 16 more days
BE THERE OR BE A SQAURE
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2010 12:17 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4126 posts
Feb 05, 2010
4:25 AM
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"Nick didn't we just have a judge from South Africa who's highest score was around 300 and the same as Scott Campbell."
Bill, Your thinking can be challenged. A low scoring judge does not mean he is scoring properly. I can go out and make sure I score everybody low and still find the best kit, but I still ain't judging properly. What a judge scores has to represent what is actually taking place overhead.
We had two judges in a row that scored everyone low. So, does that alone tell me that the judging was spot on? It doesn't tell me a thing.
"Surely you have to understand that some judge anything moving in the sky and call it a break and I am not exaggerating here."
I have also seen judges miss very sound breaks and score nothing.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%*; A Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2010 4:28 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2368 posts
Feb 05, 2010
5:51 AM
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Nick
If we have 5 Master Flyers panel judge a finals, I doubt all 5 would have the same kit win. I would think that all 5 would possibly score the same top 10 kits but not in the same order. Just too much variation in eye sight, angles of vision, interpretation of rules, personal standards...you name it......especially, if just a few points, separate the top 10 kits. It is just not reasonable to expect all 5 to score 30 kits and have the same winner. In my opinion.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2010 5:52 AM
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birdman
789 posts
Feb 05, 2010
7:37 AM
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Nick,
Are you telling us that YOU judge properly?
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Scott
2853 posts
Feb 05, 2010
8:08 AM
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Cliff.. my money says that they would get them in the right order .. to hit master Flyer it takes flys that score under all judges including the quality minded.
Nick.. never ever have I witnessed this (below).. unless what you are refering to as sound breaks simply aren't sound breaks in reality.
(I have also seen judges miss very sound breaks and score nothing. )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2010 8:11 AM
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Scott
2854 posts
Feb 05, 2010
8:10 AM
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But Max.. if someone isn't trying to be funny doesn't that just make them a village idiot ? ;)
(and pretty dam funny too)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4129 posts
Feb 05, 2010
2:26 PM
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Russ, I haven't said anything about how well I think I judge. I am not as confident or competent as others.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%*; A Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Bill C
489 posts
Feb 05, 2010
4:59 PM
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Here is a good way to understand it Nick.
Have your next local fly or big fly and have your roller friends all do pannel judging. At the end of the fly compare what everyone wrote. Make sure you tell them not to write down something just because others are but be honest if you think it is 5 rolling correctly at a time.
Some guys like Joe Urban decribes will write down a break just because of SEPERATION FROM THE KIT, while others will take note of how many they think are actually rolling.
So if 7 birds seprate from the kit, but 3 are not rolling, diving, one slow tumbler trying to resist the roll, and one swtiching wings and stopping and starting again in the same break.
Is it a 4,5,6, or 7 bird break. That is why some might not actually see the tumbler and count it 7 others just see the seperation and call it 7 and others are focused and see two birds lacking decent qualtiy and call it 5 and yet another judge will say I only saw 4 birds rolling and it does not get the minimum.
But the way we have to handle it is, the guys are consistant then it is mostly fair as can be but in the case of judging seperation ( good choice of word here to describe some ) Scotts scenario of another judge would definately have another winner. Action over Quatlity.
I am not saying Scott is the best judge, I think Kevin Naylor is better. LOL Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2010 5:01 PM
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JMUrbon
893 posts
Feb 05, 2010
6:43 PM
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LOL
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
577 posts
Feb 05, 2010
10:08 PM
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Bill
I like your Post. This is what we do in Utah. It was nice that the first fly I showed up at I got handed a score card. I had not even seen a real kit and they wanted me to help score.
After all the kits were flown we sat down and went over the cards, usually the kits were in the same order. At least the good kits. We also average the score and looked to see who was closest to the average. It is nice to look and see if you are to easy, to tough, or as in my case all over the place and just inexperienced.
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RT Williams
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