Can.. such a pigeon is what should be searched out.. but.. the real test is how do the progigy produce down the line.. many of them simply don't go any where and just die. But if a line is successful it is going to be out of such a bird normaly. ---------- Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 6:34 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3901 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:36 PM
Hey Scott, while I know you place little value on things in pigeon books, I found much insight in a book called "The Strain Makers" by "Old Hand". I would recommend it to anyone who wants to dig and find nuggets of insight into the art and science of reading pedigrees.
Here is a something from the book: "...a pedigree record is comparatively useless to you unless you know how to identify the "power" that dominates and consequently rules the family..." , "...A pedigree should be like as (a) goldmine in which one is constantly turning up and digging out priceless nuggets. However, none of us is likely to recognise the inferences, or extract genuine and valuable wisdom from a pedigree, unless we know what to look for and what value to place on it when we see it."
I have worked with my same stud of birds since 1993, that's 17 years and thousands of birds later to figure my stock out. I figure by now I have some insight into my birds that perhaps some others are starting to see for themselves.
I see the value in understanding the birds in a pedigree, even though you may not. To my way of thinking, a pedigree is more than simply a document recording the ancestry of a roller pigeon.
I haven't switched families once or chased names in 17 years and yet consistently produce good pigeons. Some have called it stock sense, all I know is, is that I love what I am doing and take background and displayed traits of birds into consideration when I pair breeders. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
If the offspring keeps turning out spinners with quality and speed and velocity and of course style,Then I will focus onto that dead bird, As one person wants to point out.JDA
Tony.. if you think that what you wrote about reading a pedigree holds water on breeding these birds .. you must have bumped your head... for some reason I keep invisioning bobbleheads sitting at key boards here. The problem here is I'm just a frigging flyer..in my world it is about breeding pigeons for that one purpose.. and there is only one thing that you better learn to read .. that is the bird itself .. there absolutly is no other way..this is the most basic of basics. Lets get this out in the open now before new guys head down this path to know where.. breeding off of pedigrees are for those that don't know how to breed and cultivate these birds .. nothing more and nothing less .. but then like I said.. I'm just a flyer.. what do I know.
PS just for the record .. there are no blank spots in my birds lineage.. which trace back to the imports...it is an interesting read.
---------- Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 10:00 PM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3902 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:40 PM
Hey Scott, funny, I keep envisioning you in a box trying to get your mind outside it. Your position is that it is all about the roll, well no kidding...that's like a race car driver saying its all about the speed while ignoring all the inputs of proper car design, performance and driver ability to attain and maintain that speed.
In systems thinking, we have the goal: "rolling with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance"
Then we look to all the positive reinforcing inputs in no particular order:
* proper training * birds genetic positive potential through ancestry * fancier ability * Proper nutrition * other
Then we look at the braking or slowing inputs:
* lousy training * birds genetic negative potential * inferior ancestry * fancier inability * poor nutrition * other
In breeding a family, the systems thinking goal becomes to find the leverage point that maximizes the reduction of the slowing action/s. This is done step by step. We also do the same exercise in reverse when it comes to increasing the positive reinforcing inputs.
Metaphorically, this requires stepping back and away from the trees in order to see the forest. When we are too close to the problem or simplistic in viewing the challenge, then it seems linear, "all about the roll, man". Step back and all the invisible interconnected parts start to come into view.
This can be a hard concept for some to follow, there is an entire industry based on the systems thinking concept. I have been studying this on and off again for many years and generally apply it to the birds. ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Systems thinking ? a little advise.. toss it out the window.. like Pedigree breeding it is nothing but a crutch made of air.. and like pedigree breeding it is far too shallow where these birds are concerned. When I said there is only one thing to read .. I wasn't refering to just the roll here Tony..far from it .. we have to look at every detail of the bird itself and how these details supports the roll impulse. In other words the physical and mental mechanics of the bird. And when choosing a mate how this all is going to balance together .. in other words.. good old stock sence evolving around what is in our hand.. the bird itself and it's "own" history from the day it hit the kitbox .. there simply is no other way ..by the way .there is more room in this box.
---------- Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2010 6:49 AM
Scott, I can't help but say, "there simply is no other way" as not being true.
I give you credit for your adive and its always good in my oppinion. 99% probably!
I am not supporting pedigree breeding ect at all but many fine roller men advise and have said to breed 1/2 brother and sister or cousins. Hendersona and Fullerton have bred cousins with good success. I know they pick the best in the air to try out but you do need a pedigree to make sure a pair is cousins or 1/2 brother and sister right!
But certainly breeding cousins just because the pedigree said they are is definately one of the wrong ways.
One way is never the right way for everyone, thats all. Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2010 2:28 PM
Canspinner, Scott is not rattling chains as much as digging deeper. His last sentance is hard to argue with. I would have put LOL after Chain? in your post!
" when chosing a mate how this is all going to balance together..in other words..good old stocksence evolving around what is in our hand..the bird it self and and its "own" history from the day it hit the kit box.. "
Now that is such good advice or opinion that I could not argue with that. No other way is a bit harder to swallow.
By the way did you ever search out Dave Hendersons web site? NEVER MIND I just checked and I think it is gone for now? Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2010 5:18 PM
Bill.. make no mistake.. there is no other way.. sure you will luck out here and there ..but even that will end in time also... which is my point about a crutch made of air... there is some good advise here for the new guys. ---------- Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2010 6:45 PM
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4143 posts
Feb 13, 2010
8:00 PM
Most of the blank spots in my birds linage usually takes place while in my possession(LOL). I am just recovering from a computer crash and I cannot pull any of my records from Power Pigeon. I am now switching over to Gonzo's program and I bought a back up system that I should have been using all along. ------------------------------------------ "Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator" ------------------------------------------ Nick Siders
