rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
584 posts
Feb 13, 2010
3:02 PM
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Thanks George for posting the picture of one of your birds. I read the post. Will you that put a lot of weight in expression and type, as well as performance explain expression please (Brad, Scott and Jay). I would really like to see some examples.
If you would like I Will post somes pics of my birds or email you pic, for your comments.
I would like to see the good and the bad.
thanks
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RT Williams
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
587 posts
Feb 13, 2010
4:27 PM
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pigeon 1. Give me opinions. I will tell you about them after a few thoughts.
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2010 4:32 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
588 posts
Feb 13, 2010
4:31 PM
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Another/pigeon 2
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RT Williams
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winwardrollers
420 posts
Feb 13, 2010
9:49 PM
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Trampas
If your looking for expression and type you need a picture of the whole body first off. Expression is the whole package from the beak to the tail.
The easiest way to explain/learn type is to find the top birds in our loft and the best birds out of the lofts around you and compare. Hands on, in a couple of year it will start to make since. Similair typed birds will have a roll in the air about them. The roll is still determined by the condition they are in regardless of type. Type will just make the roll that much better when the bird is conditioned properly, if the bird has the brain/genes in the first place.
What can I say about you birds eyes...from the pictures.. the red grizzle may have the pupil forward and the bottom has a centered pupil. What can you learn from that?
I like to see how much flex is in the eye simply by running it from dark to light. You will find fisheyed birds that I would stay away from, the eye that doesn't have much flex.
I need a bird in my hand to make an evaluation.
bwinward
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Sound Rollers
224 posts
Feb 14, 2010
8:10 AM
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Apple body expression.
John
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winwardrollers
425 posts
Feb 14, 2010
11:59 AM
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Pretty funny John.
This cartoon feature is an actual bird I have seen before on here. It is a good example of good type, expression and wing.
We had a new guy in our area a few years back that averaged 250 pts his first five competition flies. It was fun to watch his birds and I was amazed how a new guy could fly so well and consistant. Well he wanted to improve his birds, like we all do, and found info to read about type. He took what he read literal and went through his birds keeping birds that matched his criteria that he came up with and eliminated the rest, taking no regard to roll. He figured he was on the road to success. He never recovered from his mistake and is now out of birds.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 12:26 PM
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Alohazona
689 posts
Feb 14, 2010
12:05 PM
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The red grizzle,looks like a potentially deep,but loose roller,possible kitting problems.
The dark check looks like a couple of scenarios.One would be highflying short but fast rolls infrequent,average kitbird.Second would be a early developer that falls apart after its 8 th month and becomes infrequent,then one day you find her hobbling behind your van tire after she bumped after a release....Aloha,Todd
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
591 posts
Feb 14, 2010
1:59 PM
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Todd
Can you tell me why?
You are correct on one of the birds. It was deep all the way the ground. The only reason it is alive is to use as a possible foster. It rolled down early (4 months) so can not say much more about her.
The other is a multi-depth bird that I flew for 18 months. Just pulled her to breed from. SHe averaged 15 foot, real smooth in roll, and about once a minute. She never bumped or any accidents, and was always headed right back to kit . If I had a kit of her I would be hard to beat.
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RT Williams
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Hector Coya
626 posts
Feb 14, 2010
2:21 PM
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,
I need to go outside and take a better picture,but i like the eyes on this hen.She is 1 generation off Monty Neible birds
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 2:23 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
592 posts
Feb 14, 2010
2:31 PM
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Hector
Nice lloking bird. I like the all business look in its facial expression. I wish I could see the pupil better.
Thanks
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RT Williams
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Alohazona
690 posts
Feb 14, 2010
2:45 PM
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The grizzle is lacking glean in it's eye,the head shape denotes a deeper keel,which will take it to the ground faster.If you have brothers or sisters of the grizzle with a steel look and quality spin,you may very well have a good prospect,they need stronger character[self preservation] to pull out of the spin.
The dark check is sporty,I still feel there is a day she will hit.If she is the one that has the heart to shoot back to the kit,that is a very important feature combined with smooth rolling....Aloha,Todd
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
596 posts
Feb 14, 2010
4:17 PM
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The Grizzle is the rolldown.
The blue check has a lot of heart. and the best bird I raised in my intial year 2008. I pulled her and bred her to her father for a couple late rounds, and flew her in the fall fly. she returned to form nicely. She looks alot like her mother, and a good related hen I got from a good breeder/flier here in Utah
THanks for the response
I will look at how head shape and keel correspond.
I am not sure what you mean by glean in the eye, and I wish I could pass a couple pigeons between us and discuss that.
I have a few sibling from the griz, and if they hold up and not crash, they will be as you desribed. One went about 70 feet, it rolled for all of 6 seconds, the other day. But this family has a tendancy to crash, and once they hit they stay out of the kit, some close but just out enough to be mad at them. LOL
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RT Williams
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Scott
2879 posts
Feb 14, 2010
7:12 PM
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Trampus.. I like expression along the line of that dark check.. it is neither too strong nor to weak.. there isn't a thing wrong with that bird from the head shot.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 9:24 PM
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Scott
2880 posts
Feb 14, 2010
7:21 PM
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Todd.. you are joking I hope.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 8:15 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4145 posts
Feb 14, 2010
7:32 PM
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It is amazing what you guys can get out of a picture of a bird's head and never seeing the bird perform. We have ssooooo many Bill Pensoms now days. It is just scary.(LOL)
------------------------------------------
"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Scott
2882 posts
Feb 14, 2010
9:20 PM
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Nick.. I gotta agree with you on this one.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2883 posts
Feb 14, 2010
9:23 PM
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Hector.. is that Nieble crossed on something else.. or just the pic ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2010 9:23 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
597 posts
Feb 14, 2010
9:43 PM
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Thanks Nock and Scott.
Nick. I agree, not sure how anyone can look at a pigeon in the hand and tell what it might be like, let alone a picture. However I do believe that how a pigeon is made up can tell you if has a good chance to be a good bird.
Thanks again.
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RT Williams
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JMUrbon
908 posts
Feb 14, 2010
9:53 PM
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RT realistically all a picture or a bird in hand can do is tell you weather the bird looks like it has what we have come to recognize as a good or a bad bird. Nothing more! Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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diamondrollers
379 posts
Feb 14, 2010
11:56 PM
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i agree 100% with joe on this one
sal
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RodSD
381 posts
Feb 15, 2010
1:52 AM
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I prefer that dark check myself. I think through experience/observation we can have a mental model of a bird's potential. I have noticed that my good performing birds have certain looks in them--sort of like go-getter look, confident. Obviously there will be exceptions. It is hard to explain a certain look. It is possible that the longer you raise pigeons, you will develop certain stock sense as well. Obviously their performance will have the final say.
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winwardrollers
427 posts
Feb 15, 2010
7:22 AM
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Scott
Hector.. is that Nieble crossed on something else.. or just the pic ?
The hen looks like she could be eggy, with the droopy wing, bump in the rump or crossed like your asking.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2010 7:38 AM
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Sound Rollers
225 posts
Feb 15, 2010
7:23 AM
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Thanks Bwinward, that hen is actually mine, I photoshopped the apple and applied some effects, of the four birds I have she shows the best expression, I think, I have never seen her fly.
John
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Alohazona
692 posts
Feb 15, 2010
11:19 AM
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Scott,in my defense I can only go off of birds I've seen develop in my own yard,so it wasn't a joke.
The dark check in question, as I can relate it to a bird in my yard had the same physical features.The only thing that was different is the bird was found dead behind the van tire.
The bird was bought as a fourth place finisher in our futurity fly,I bought it at the auction.The bird was flown for 2 years and I was considering it for stock when it came up missing.It was bred from your stock ,Scott.....Aloha,Todd
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
600 posts
Feb 15, 2010
11:39 AM
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Todd
Thanks for your thoughts. I believe that you are being honest from your experiences.
Which I guess brings up the point. From an individuals experience, certian physical traits, may indicate potential. However a roller can look all wrong and perform correctly, and the best looking pigeon can be a Cull. So we stil have to fly them.
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RT Williams
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Hector Coya
627 posts
Feb 15, 2010
5:53 PM
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Scott,why would you think the monty Neible hen is a cross,becouse its not in your loft it has to be a mongrel?
The han was bred by John Moore,he won the NBRC Auction years ago when Monty donated a kit of squeeckers.
And i alson have some from John Sandaval,he actually whent to Canada in 1992 and spent a week at Montys house,,,and brought back 6 birds,,,You can call these people. if you want there number E mail me and ill send it.
I ..just get tired of being accused of have shit birds Just becouse there not Scott Campel birds.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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Hector Coya
628 posts
Feb 15, 2010
6:44 PM
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Scott
2884 posts
Feb 15, 2010
7:33 PM
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That isn't it at all Hector.. due the picture it just didn't show as Neible type.. that is why I asked if it was just the picture... as for my birds.. it is rare that you ever even mention anything about my birds here or any where else.
Todd.. any bird can call a bad shot.. I know for my birds it is rare for one to fall apart in the 2nd year.. expression is only a educated guess on whether a bird can handle the roll or not .. but ultimatly it depends on how much of the impulse to roll they are gifted with.
I have seen hard expressioned birds become roll downs .. and poor expressioned birds hardly roll.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2010 10:08 PM
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Alohazona
693 posts
Feb 15, 2010
9:01 PM
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That makes sense Scott,Thanks.....Todd
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rollerpigeon1963
301 posts
Feb 16, 2010
12:08 PM
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RT,
Each and every family has there own expression. Until you have had your family for a while and see how they carry themselves and perform. And see which ones out perfom the others. You will get a good idea when you see that certain bird in your kitbox. I mean you know what performs and what expression they have. That don't mean you can do the same to other families. Its all about you and the family your working with and what you see from the birds you raised. Like some said the Roe birds were pinched faced. Some would call them because of there looks and then you have the birds that have the mile long face and narrow heads. Each family is different as night and day
Brian Middaugh
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winwardrollers
428 posts
Feb 16, 2010
6:37 PM
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Brian
I can deal with and agree each family having own expression, but continuing the breeding of a pinched faced mile long narrow head is beyond expression. Your into bad breeding at this point.
Bwinward
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
603 posts
Feb 17, 2010
9:35 PM
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Brian
Good to see you are still around. I hope everything is going well with you. The 1943 and 1921 breeding gave me a few real fast good birds. I look forward to them getting better and more consistant this year.
I agree that different families can have different looks, The Starley's and Billing's, are similar but just a litle different.
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RT Williams
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