steve49
429 posts
Feb 27, 2010
6:12 AM
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just got a mailing from tom hatcher about his new book, and wondered if anyone has gotten it yet, and if they did, what is their opinion?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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birdman
792 posts
Feb 27, 2010
9:38 AM
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I had the old book and gave it away.
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steve49
430 posts
Feb 27, 2010
10:40 AM
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i have pensom's book, and it is great. i wasn't really sure what is contained in this new book, but he's claiming its the 'most spectacular roller book of all time'. 300 pictures, 200 pages, but not sure if its reprinted material which has already appeared in his other book.
hey birdman, what older book are you referring to?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 10:41 AM
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Bill C
500 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:05 AM
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I agree with JDA, the Pensom book is still the best all around book on raising and flying rollers ever printed.
I have Tom Hatchers other books and they are just letters from rollermen he put together. It will most likely be a reprint of his other books which are not worth $30. I also recieved a letter and a PO Box return address. I threw it away and I love roller books. I have the book "Last of the Greats and the next generation".
My honest oppionin is he is selling books to newbies that do not know any better. Has anyone met Tom Hatcher at a convention or any roller event in the last 5 or 10 years? I am just saying Joe Houghton has a book he and a friend was selling and they have shown up at roller pigeon events to promote their book and the hobby.
The old hatcher books which I have, do not have anything in them you cannot read here at this site, infact roller sites have much much more valuable information. Just my take on this. Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 11:11 AM
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pat66
484 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:09 AM
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I ordered the book, should be here in a few days, there is always something to learn from reading,no one knows it all! If I learn 1 thing from the book it is worth it! JMO
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ECRA
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Bill C
501 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:28 AM
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I could have told you one thing in book to save you the money. LOL Tom Hatcher said, he flew his cocks and hens seperately, until a comp fly then put them together on fly day and they rolled much more.
I dont know if he ever flew in any real competitons back then? But he did develop the continentals and they were some good birds comming from Stan Plonas birds some Leroy smith and the English birds were somehting like ( now I cant quite place the other name) someone will call me or put in a note on them.
There is a guy who was a associate in the HFRC and we talked about his continentals he had. He would know.
Nothing wrong with buying books that you want. They will be discounted in summer or fall though. I can certainly tell you the book will be mostly other guys articles which are aleady available on the web free of charge. But this is an easy way to read them. Bill C
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 11:29 AM
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birdman
793 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:55 AM
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Hi Steve, the book I gave away was " Last Of The Greats And The Next Generation".
Like Bill said, it is a collection of various printed letters, old articles, and pictures. A friend of mine jokingly commented that the "book" could have been made by anybody with a copy machine...lol
For me, I think the most interesting thing in the book was the description of the Yo-Yo system that Monty used. I also liked picture of the elevated design of James Turner's loft...lol
Russ
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donnie james
936 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:56 AM
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hay guys,
talking about Pensom tom monson put a book out of Pensom writings its got his a few lettlers in and notes in there and i think a really good book to read and Tom sold them book early '90
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 5:00 PM
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birdman
794 posts
Feb 27, 2010
12:08 PM
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Donny, do you know if Tom Monson still has the book availlable? I thought he stopped selling it long ago.
Thanks!
Russ
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tucknroll
50 posts
Feb 27, 2010
12:40 PM
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Bill C,
The Continentals that Tom Hatcher bred were from a J Leroy Smith cock bird 9686 a lavendar grouse legged cock bird pictured in the original book "The Last of the Greats" Tom in the late 70's lived in Seattle Washington a gentlemen by the name of. Charles Mc Vay had birds from Fred Taylor of Seattle Washington. Fred Taylor and Ivan Brower of Friday Washington frequently traded birds amoungst them selves. To my knowledge the birds that they worked with that eventually Charles Mc Vay created a family with were importations. Fred Taylor was a master breeder and flyer of same.
Donny the book you refer to by Tom Monson was the compilation of writngs by Howard Mc Cully. There are some really good referencing with in the writings if you are at all intereseted in the history of the Pensom Family of imports etc.
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Good Times Roll
71 posts
Feb 27, 2010
12:55 PM
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Tucknroll I think it was McFay not McVay also Monson had 2 books one was writings of Pensom and the other was writings of McCully,
RL
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pat66
485 posts
Feb 27, 2010
1:02 PM
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That Lavender was PRC 76 #9686 (THE BOSS)and I have some of his descendants in my loft-I fly pensoms and Hatcher birds,the Hatchers came from a friend of mine
ED Taylor ,I do not know if he is related to Fred or not but I have blood and peds that go back to 1966!
will check on the ED & FRED deal unless someone knows
Now this is a good post! Thanks TUCKNROLL & Bill C
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ECRA
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Alohazona
694 posts
Feb 27, 2010
4:22 PM
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Tom is a genuine rollerman hands down!The last time he called me we talked for 4 hours on his coin about rollers,specifically his continental line.
If you keep an open mind all the books on rollers, that are available will feed you something tangable that can move you forward.
Some of the writings in Tom's past books are very informative and give you a different taste on the differences from fancier to fancier.Some of the gentlemen featured in those writings have passed away now, and are the types of gents you would never see on the internet.So if Tom never would have took the time to get their story,it would be lost.
I'm sure Tom is not in it for the money,he's doing alright in that arena.Theres obviously more he wants to share about rollers.
Many of the nay sayers are people that don't know Tom at all and are general gossipers.
P.S.My #1 line of birds is bred off pure Hatcher birds and they have produced very well for me.I am definetly not the type of person that gives up on a line.Most likely it is ready to pay dividends when others give up and move on..........Aloha,Todd
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pat66
486 posts
Feb 27, 2010
4:45 PM
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Tom is a great guy! will talk to you about anything! AWESOME ROLLERMAN ! THANKS TODD!
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ECRA
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Bill C
504 posts
Feb 27, 2010
4:47 PM
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MacFay or MacVay, that was the name I could not remember.
Todd a free market is the American way. Cole Hatcher who is Tom Hatchers son called me a few years back with the last of his Fathers Pure Leroy and Smith birds for sale. I do feel comfortable saying that the Last of the Hatcher birds have been selling for the past 20 years! LOL
I absolutely think there are guys doing very well with the birds from the past. I dont know about any last birds still on the market though. The guys who continue with any family and keep the goods going is a tribute to themselves and the guy who passed on the good to the next generation.
I am going to restrain myself from saying more because its not necessary. But I have to at least say " He's not in it for the money" that is the understatement of the year. He is selling others information and pictures and is in it for the doe! Which is the American way, make money and have freedom. If you wanted to call me by phone I could certainly explain. I'm in the NBRC directory BIll C
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3561 posts
Feb 27, 2010
4:57 PM
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Todd I have to agree with you on that every book there is some information that can help you move forward.
the last book I bought from Tom there was great pictures and talk about natural stuff you can give your birds when they stop laying to help get a few more eggs from them and loft pictures that you can get ideas from.I think it was Dick S. who talk about the vitamins.the book was called The Last of the Great and Next Generation, look at The True Spinning Rollers by David D.Kowalski..what comp he ever won Now I won't buy birds from him but that book is good..It was a good buy for my money... Paul Gomez just made a book I added that to my library too..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 4:58 PM
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Alohazona
695 posts
Feb 27, 2010
6:48 PM
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That's ok Bill,I'm sure theres something to what your saying,I've heard some other things.
I guess I'm one that has benefited,but it has taken alot of time and effort to get these birds the point where they are.Which is just producing better percentages.....Aloha,Todd
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JMUrbon
927 posts
Feb 27, 2010
6:58 PM
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I personall dont feel Pensoms book is the best. I actually liked Grahm Dexters and Kowalskis first book better. They were easier to follow I felt. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3566 posts
Feb 27, 2010
7:14 PM
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Ahh Joe now that book by Graham D.my favorite...
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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wishiwon2
303 posts
Feb 27, 2010
9:24 PM
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I agree with Joe, I got far more use out of the information from G. Dexters book than from Pensoms. If I had to recomend just 1 for rollermen, that would be it.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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macsrollers
284 posts
Feb 27, 2010
11:17 PM
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All these books have some good information and knowledge in them. Steve, like I said in your post about hens laying in kit boxes, this type of knowledge is just guidelines as your birds adapt to your conditions and management- the results will be good or bad dependent on your skills and if you started out with good stock. I have all the books mentioned and I agree that Dexter and Kowalski's books were some of the better ones. But I like Pensom's Birmingham Roller book. The reason I like it is that I can go back and read it about every 6 months to a year and as I gain experience and knowledge I understand his writings and teachings more and more. Joe is right. The other books are easier to follow and for beginners may seem more beneficial. But if you get the Pensom book- get the original version as some sell a condensed version- go back and read it as you gain experience and maybe you will see what I mean about the benefits of doing so as you gain experience. I only have one negative thing to say about Tom Hatcher's books. The photos are pages and pages of so called champions. I think some us the word champion way to loosely. One of the top fliers ever has told me that he feels he has raised about 5 true champions in his lifetime. How many Man O' Wars or Secretariats are their truely in horse racing. But a champion is determined by the person calling it such so I can't say Tom Hatcher is 100% wrong. And of course this is just my opinion or 2 cents worth! Enjoy your next fly, and enjoy the books! Reading is knowledge!
Don M. Mac's Rollers
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3570 posts
Feb 28, 2010
5:55 AM
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Good post Don..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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steve49
433 posts
Feb 28, 2010
6:34 AM
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Don, its always a pleasure reading your perspective. i have Kowalski's, 'the spinner' and have read it numerous times, as well as Pensom's, TBR. that's why, after ponying up for Tom's, Key's to Flying Rollers, i was a bit hesitant since most of it was interviews, and i didn't want to get the same thing again. (interviews were great but i was hoping to read something more meaty, if you know what i mean).
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Richard
130 posts
Mar 01, 2010
7:12 PM
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Yes "The last of the Greats and the next generation"has some letters in it but it also has a lot of nostalgis. If you want to learn about the great flyers in yesteryear this is a very good book with lot of pictures of these great men. It does have quality writing from them. This book was copyright in 1978. well worth the money and especially great for the newer generation in the hobby.
The collected writilngs of William Hyla Penson edited by thomas L Monson. I have the second edition 1988.
I am not sure when the first edition was printed. This book has lot of information on the roller. Very good for those who don't know lt all. Mr Penson had a lot of writings but some were not clear or easy to understand what he meant. Another interesting book. Remember this was written many years ago. Some take his writing as Gospel. ? Flying the roller has changed in the last 50 years.
Mr Tomas Monson did a very good job on both books. Worth having for the roller flyer.
Richard Miller
PS Tom is a very knowledgeable Roller Man
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Roll Down
92 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:52 AM
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Steve 49:
Pensom's book is a must, but David Kowalski's 2nd book was also very informative and well written, in my opinion.
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Scott
2906 posts
Mar 02, 2010
9:42 AM
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I'm with Richard on the first book .. the last one was a throw together and more like a magazine .. myself I would never shell out what is being asked for it.
Nothing out there tops writings that Monson put together years ago.. and it is really the only way to understand Pensoms true context on many of his indepth thoughts due to how he touched on the same topics over the years.
His (Pensoms) book is good .. but many bend what he wrote to fit agendas and projects .. even by those that think that they are taking everything he wrote as gospel.
I honestly havn't read any books with the "depth" of Pensoms thoughts on the breed.. although Monty Neible wrote some articals that were very deep on the breed where kit mechanics were concerned .. which is as important and intertwined as Pensoms own writings where the breed is concerned.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2010 10:34 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4178 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:34 PM
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I have another book I will send to the first to ask: "The Aerial Performce of the Birmingham Roller" by Cornell L. Norwood. It can be read in about an hour. Large font; double spaced; and lots of pictures. Copyrighted in 1996
It is used.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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birdman
795 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:42 PM
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Nick,
I would like to read it again.
Can you send it my way?
Thanks!
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2010 9:54 PM
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JMUrbon
931 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:50 PM
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Ouch!!!
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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birdman
796 posts
Mar 02, 2010
9:28 PM
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It's not like that Joe....lol
I gave Nick that book years ago and would like to read it again.
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JMUrbon
932 posts
Mar 02, 2010
9:36 PM
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Ok Russ, it just sounded funny the way you put it. I wouldnt think that of Nick anyway. Out of his charachter. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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birdman
797 posts
Mar 02, 2010
9:56 PM
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Joe,You're right. I re-read it again and didn't like the way it sounded. Sorry about that Nick....lol
Thanks Joe...lol
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4179 posts
Mar 02, 2010
11:12 PM
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Hello Russ, I will send it your way.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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birdman
798 posts
Mar 03, 2010
7:04 AM
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OK Nick, Thank You!
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4180 posts
Mar 03, 2010
9:55 AM
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Russ, Email me your mailing address to nsiders203@sbcglobal.net
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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steve49
443 posts
Mar 03, 2010
1:24 PM
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hey all, the book i am asking about is "Last of the greats, and beyond". since i bought one of his other books, he mailed me about his current work, which may or may not be similar to the first one with the similar name.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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kcfirl
631 posts
Mar 03, 2010
5:50 PM
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I would not send him a penny. The guy has very little invoplvement with the guys actually flying and I feel his methods of gatheirn photos and stories are borderline illegal and certainly not completely upright.
Regards,
Ken
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donnie james
943 posts
Mar 03, 2010
5:58 PM
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hay russ,
heres tom monson phone number be best call him at night (.......)
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 4:19 AM
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JMUrbon
935 posts
Mar 03, 2010
7:18 PM
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Donny, probably not a good idea to give Tom's # on an open forum. JMHO Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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donnie james
944 posts
Mar 03, 2010
8:19 PM
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hay joe,
your right i wasn't thinking i should gave russ a private email............
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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JMUrbon
936 posts
Mar 03, 2010
8:46 PM
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And you should probably delete Toms # ASAP. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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birdman
799 posts
Mar 03, 2010
10:54 PM
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Thanks Donny.
And Joe's right, you might want to delete the phone #.
Russ
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JMUrbon
940 posts
Mar 05, 2010
12:32 PM
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Well he does have an opinion doesnt he. this is an open forum and he is entitled to his opinion on any subject he fels compelled to give one on. JMHO
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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