steve49
439 posts
Feb 28, 2010
2:49 PM
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with all the talk about bop's, i'm surprised more guys haven't spoken about flying oriental rollers before the BR's. from what i'm reading on the various FOR (flying oriental roller) sites, the FOR is really good at avoiding bop's. it was also pointed out that young FOR may not be any better than BR's at avoiding bops, but the adults have a great ablitity to dodge and swerve and do whatever it takes. i'm really thinking about flying a small kit of FOR's, and see for myself. what do you guys think?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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johnjay
4 posts
Feb 28, 2010
3:14 PM
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how do orientals perform? Do any body have a quick lesson on orientals?
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4172 posts
Feb 28, 2010
3:37 PM
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They roll similar to Birminghams, but are not kit birds as we know of Birminghams. Flying two or three at a time would be ideal. That way you would not have to have the breeding plant that you have for your Birminghams.
I know a flier that free lofts Racing Homers for the same reason, about a half dozen or so. They can simply and easily out run BOP. He has very few attacks on his rollers; very few.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 3:37 PM
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Pinwheel
132 posts
Feb 28, 2010
4:16 PM
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I do not think flying another breed is any better. I just read through some FOR forums and they seem to be losing birds as well. I had OR for a little bit. They still got eaten all the same. Homers get taken too. My father raised a lot of homers and raced them as well. BOP took em out, and so he just gave up after a while. I say the solution in flying birds without/avoiding predation lies not in the breed. The use of a falconer mentioned in above threads is an example of part of a solution. I just dont see how a different breed would work when everything else is staying the same. Same location of flight, same training, same handling. The hawk will figure it out especially if they are hungry enough. They hunt to survive, and thats their game. I think the FORS ability to outmaneuver the hawk may be very true. But its not saying it out manuevers it everytime. Takes things with a grain of salt, in addition to this post.
I think that the hype over FORs is just that. I got them originally becuase I was going to evade the hawks, and fly all the time. The predators are more highly selected then our pigeons on an survival bases, they win. If you had a pigeon breed that avoided the BOP, it would never be in your loft. It would be nomadic, and find itself in a large group, and have some other physical features that enabled it to survive. Just my opinion based on theory and some experience.
In other words, dont try to sell yourself on another breed of bird because they may be better suited against BOP.
I recently got Divers(Wutas) due to the fact that there performance time is short, when well trained, they dive straight down, hit the ground and you walk them in. I think thats more hawk proof then any other performance breed. But Im sure it wont be. BUt I didnt get them because they were good at avoiding BOP. Based on experience, most attacks are low flight for extended period of time. Divers are either high or low, and when they are low, they are on the ground with you and if trained enough, you can have them in your possession quickly.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 4:33 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3573 posts
Feb 28, 2010
5:06 PM
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Good post Pinwheel.straight to the point..
----------I say they can avoid the Hawk most of the time but so can my rollers well at least the red tail Hawk..now a Falcon that is a different story..peace..
Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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steve49
440 posts
Feb 28, 2010
5:33 PM
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i still think if a FOR can avoid a bop better than a BR, than flying a few adults could be helpful. hey, its not rocket science. we all know the bop is catching pigeons because they need to eat. no other reason. however, it should also be pointed out that pigeons still survive in the wild, and nobody is locking them down! to lockdown for an entire winter sucks. i'm no different than the next guy, i don't want to lose birds. But if flying FOR's can give me a leg up, and entice the bop to chase them, and not be successful, its worth the effort. it shouldn't take too long for them to figure out easier prey is elsewhere. afterall, they've got to eat, and hunger will surely move them on. its simply the law of nature.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Buck
20 posts
Feb 28, 2010
5:49 PM
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I have Coopers & Redtails only here. I have no real problem with Redtails , it's the Coopers that do the damage here.I fly Birms & Orientals both. The Orientals are no better than the Birms at escaping the Coopers. Either can outfly the Coopers if in the open & they are experienced. Both are ducksoup when ambushed in the confusion of taking off or landing ! I lockdown during migration as there are some bops that can outfly either breed.
Buck
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3575 posts
Feb 28, 2010
6:02 PM
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Steve we can't compare our birds or any birds that we domesticated.pigeons in the wild don't fly for 30 to an hour way up in the sky they fly low and from wire to wire or tree to tree they know how to survive their nature kicks in when they are not subject to our rules.wild pigeons know the streets and know when to avoid the BOP but our pigeons fly when we tell them to .sometimes we make them go out when they don't want to go out is like they know something is out there but we don't, and we chase them out and all they know is figure eight flying or circles and back into their loft.they no longer wild they are tame and when fed a rich diet the BOP knows he rather go to red lobster than burger king.. ...if you get FOR let me know how it goes for you.good luck..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4173 posts
Feb 28, 2010
6:17 PM
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I believe a BOP can eventually take any bird. It is all about ambush and not always about flight speed or manueverability. It happens generally when they are leaving or returning.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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Pinwheel
133 posts
Feb 28, 2010
7:10 PM
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I was just saying, When averaged out, the losses are about the same I would speculate. Buck says from experience they are no better. I had them, and they werent much better either. And from experience, if a cooper wants a bird, it will stick around and chase as long as the bird is out. Its been awhile since I been flying but as an example, One time during the summer I had a cooper pursue on multiple occasions within 10 minuets. She also had a group of 4 crows in hot pursuit of her yelling like crazy and they even chased after her in the dives. and she finally got the bird took it down into the woods, leaving the crows in the tree yelling down at her. But, I think the FORs are pretty cool. So try them out and see as another breed of performer. Dont hold on to there value as BOP evaders too strongly.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2010 7:11 PM
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steve49
441 posts
Feb 28, 2010
7:17 PM
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well, that's very enlightening! Buck, thanx for telling it like it is. so, i'm wondering where all those folks on the FOR forums get their info. its funny how a story can develop, and become misinformation. i think Ralph sums it up pretty good. we're pushing our birds out to deal with bop's, when they might not choose to do so. i've seen a cooper right on the tail of one of my birds, within a couple of feet, and my bird escaped. so, i suppose if landing and taking off is when they're most vulnerable, then we'll just have to keep them flying FOREVER! now if we can figure out how to feed them in the air...
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Pogohawk
20 posts
Feb 28, 2010
8:03 PM
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This is just my opinion.....but. Coopers hawks are especially crafty as I'm sure you've all witnessed. They have a tendency to make their ambushes from a certain area. They will become confident on one and at most two ambush routes (not always the case) but as a general rule. As Buck said, in the open or pigeons have a chance, its when the birds are landing and taking off that the hawk has the advantage. Coopers are also very keen to use trees as cover and are much faster through trees and low to ground than the rollers. I know my birds always get hit from the same direction almost every time and most often, right out of the kit box on the take off. This being said I could maybe see an advantage to FOR not staying bunched together. However I feel that this would best be taken advantage of after the birds have taken wing, as I believe they would be just as likely to get hit low to the ground on take off and landing as a BR. Just my thoughts.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3576 posts
Mar 01, 2010
7:47 AM
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I have watch falcon come from way far now this BOP is not hiding in a tree when he gets his prey is only by diving down on them .my birds could be 400 feet up as soon as he grabs one I watch as he goes flying back from what ever distance he came from and with binoculars this bop is fading away ,wow I'm talking miles. Coopers work hiding in trees ambushing. the Falcon does his work in the sky.no win win situation for our birds.now when I let out my birds I say you are on your own.If you make it you make .nothing I can do .there's time I call the birds down when I see this falcon coming and if they would listen they would have been save.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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pat66
487 posts
Mar 01, 2010
7:54 AM
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I fly ORs first, in the air the hawks have a very hard time catching them, but I lose many on take offs and landings- no bird is hawk proof!my birms get caught in the air and take offs and landing
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ECRA
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VetFlyer
10 posts
Mar 01, 2010
8:52 AM
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“I recently got Divers (Wutas) due to the fact that there performance time is short, when well trained, they dive straight down, hit the ground and you walk them in. I think that’s more hawk proof than any other performance breed.”
That was exactly what I thought, until I realized that Wutas don’t avoid hawks, they pursue them.
I posted the following on another forum, about two months ago;
“It is a little overcast here today, but I decided to fly the birds anyway. I released my team of eight Wutas and after just a few minutes I looked up to see a hawk coming from the South. I found the Wutas a little North of the loft rapidly gaining altitude. By the time the hawk reached the area they were in they were several hundred feet above it. My next thought was, what are those crazy birds doing? They were in a full dive headed right at the hawk! The hawk reacted similar to what a pigeon would do; it darted, dodged and then dove into some tall trees on the next block. The Wutas pulled out of the dive and started climbing again. Chalk one up for the pigeons! I love these birds.”
I followed that with this post today;
“Last weekend I flew the Wutas at the request of a friend that wanted his uncle to see them perform. They were still climbing when they suddenly started diving on their own, before I released the droppers. This time the hawk didn't try to avoid them, it waited for them and after a short chase, flew off with one of my best birds.”
I think the mixed results were due to the species of BOP, as the second one was much larger than the first.
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Pinwheel
134 posts
Mar 01, 2010
5:33 PM
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Nice. Well, just goes to show that no bird is hawk proof. So im slightly confused, do you own Wutas? or are you just posting quotes from someone else to a forum? Im willing to bet that best bird was the one that initiated the dive towards the hawk. Ill assume it was a very sensitive bird that would dive on a drop of a dime without much discretion. ALthough I might be wrong.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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VetFlyer
11 posts
Mar 01, 2010
6:12 PM
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Yes, I was describing my birds. You may be right about why they dove on the hawks, but the only none intended dives have been at hawks, never at a passing crow, dove or feral pigeon. I agree with your statements that their flight pattern does not attract BOP and that no bird is hawk proof.
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Pinwheel
135 posts
Mar 01, 2010
7:06 PM
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Very cool. Well I havent gotten any divers flying. I just bought some young ones and am waiting for them to have young, so I can just start there. how about diving to vultures? or not diving to vultures even if they were there.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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maxspin
380 posts
Mar 02, 2010
6:28 AM
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I got some Oriental Rollers with just that thought in mind. Reality is that I only have so much time to fly birds. Often I have to make a choice. Fly Orientals or fly Birminghams. The Birminghams win every time. At the end of the season I had a kit of Orientals that did not get the time to show what they could do performance wise. This may be a strategy for the retired guy, but I just do not have the time for a second flying breed.
Keith
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Buck
21 posts
Mar 02, 2010
7:13 AM
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Some things I have observed here , with the hawks :
If attacking from the air They like to have the sun behind them. The majority of attacks in the morning seem to be from the East & late afternoon , the West. Or they come in low enough to have something as a background , not the sky.
Here , though , most often , they like to get set up for an ambush from a couple large trees that are a couple hundred feet from the boxs.
Buck
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Pogohawk
24 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:40 AM
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That is the case here too Buck. The coopers ambushes from tall trees to the east of my loft with the sun behind him early in the morning.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3578 posts
Mar 02, 2010
9:06 AM
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The red tail here love the sun they come out at 10am and again at 12pm when the sun is the hottest..circling high in the sky above.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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Windjammer Loft
1075 posts
Mar 02, 2010
10:33 AM
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This is a subject of mamy many thoughts. I read about this flying a couple of years back. So,I invested in some Oriental Rollers. For me,it did work. The BOP got
"frustrated" time and time again due to the fact that they were being out manuvered in the air. Once I reconized this happening I would fly the OR's first and then my other birds. Eventuly,the BOP didn't bother to try and attack any of my birds. But,last year I noticed that when I didn't practice this method repeatedly I did lose some of my birds. In the 2010 season I "will" use this method on a regular basis.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2010 10:39 AM
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Pinwheel
136 posts
Mar 02, 2010
10:44 AM
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Do you know what BOP you have Paul? and how are they usually taken? take off/landing... or over tree top level
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2010 10:47 AM
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Windjammer Loft
1078 posts
Mar 04, 2010
12:46 PM
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Pinwheel... I have Coopers. The Red Tails don't bother my birds. Also, for the last 2 summers I have had a flock of "crows" staying around my house. They deffinately keep "all" the BOP away from their territory. The birds that get taken,are taken at very low heights when circling to land. I don't have any trees around my loft for at least 500ft and they are at the very back of my property. It's about a 15ft wide treeline,as a divider between my property and the land behind me. Which is a very large open corn field or wheat field.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 5:11 AM
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TheGame
686 posts
Mar 04, 2010
9:07 PM
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The Hawks around me are smart. I would fly my homers first and if nothing bothered them let my rollers out after the homers landed. But as soon as the rollers go out the Hawks show up and start doing their thing.
I also dont think flying another breed before your rollers will do anything.
I am all about survival of the fittest!!
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 9:10 PM
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Buck
22 posts
Mar 05, 2010
7:14 AM
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We are free to fly in the summer because the hawks are feasting on songbird nestlings & young animals. This is the reason we are seeing less & less of our songbirds. I haven't seen a Meadowlark for years, they were once common ! The dwindling habitat & preditors are taking their tow.
Buck
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Pinwheel
141 posts
Mar 05, 2010
9:00 AM
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I guess it works for some. But like you said, hawks are smart. Im sure they can tell the difference between a OR and a birm and know which one they can get and which one they cant. and all they have to do is wait around all day until the opportunity comes.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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TheGame
687 posts
Mar 05, 2010
9:23 AM
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Pinwheel I deff agree with you. They are patient and will wait and watch carefully and pick out the ones to go after.
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Squabby*32
202 posts
Mar 05, 2010
10:12 AM
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Ditto. I agree with you Game, they always take the best ones when they observe and strike.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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pigeon pete
517 posts
Mar 05, 2010
11:55 AM
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Just a thought--- is the penalty less for cutting someones trees down, than for interfering with a BOB?
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Pinwheel
142 posts
Mar 05, 2010
12:52 PM
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I have also heard about FOR's being very territorial in the air and actually chasing away hawks. Perhaps this has happened. But given the evidence of the Wutas diving to a hawk and it snatching it up, makes me believe that a meal coming directly too you is hard to pass up or run away from. But I dont doubt any of the claims made towards FOR's.
one can Make the new breed of performance pigeons that when you let them out, you just pray a hawk comes so you can watch it "perform."
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 12:53 PM
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TheGame
692 posts
Mar 06, 2010
5:03 PM
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Pinwheel they do have Escampadissas which are used to capture hawks and other BOPs lol.
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