Pogohawk
28 posts
Mar 02, 2010
10:23 AM
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I have a lavender cock that I've paired with a black hen was wondering if I might get lavender chicks? I only know a little bit about color and was hoping you guys could help me out. I'm not particularly shooting for the color I was just wondering if it might happen.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3909 posts
Mar 02, 2010
10:46 AM
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Yes.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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winwardrollers
441 posts
Mar 02, 2010
11:40 AM
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Both are solids so you are going to get some of both color. If the cock has some ticking in the tail which he looks like he does you are more than likely going to get more blacks. The Lav also has a slight bar which will give you a bar once in a blue moon unless the hen has bar factor as well.
The birds don't look like they are banded other than with bandettes.
bwinward
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4176 posts
Mar 02, 2010
2:52 PM
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Those are nice looking birds
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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155
1185 posts
Mar 02, 2010
7:12 PM
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hey Pogohawk
I put a red check cock to a black hen and this is what i got from them
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~Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft~
.Meas Arizona. .Compton.
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Pogohawk
30 posts
Mar 02, 2010
7:56 PM
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That a pretty little bird. I think it looks very similar to my lavender without the ticking and slight bar. Great pictures thanks for that. How does this particular bird roll?
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JMUrbon
930 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:06 PM
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Both your bird Pogo and yours Jose are Ash red spread. The difference is the cock with the ticking is able to show another color which is blue. Hens can only show what they are. The reason you got this bird Jose from the Red check and the black is because the red check is actually an ash red and that is dominant to blue. Black is actually blue in pigeon genetics. The barring on the cock is very common in lavenders and is a good indication that the cock is carrying Barring also. Put him on a barred hen and you will likely get barred offspring.
Jose that is a good looking hen. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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macsrollers
286 posts
Mar 02, 2010
8:19 PM
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You mentioned you aren't going for color, but if you use a shiny black with no bar in the tail you will get cleaner Lavenders. The hens are usually prettier because they don't carry 2 color factors like the cocks that will show the blue ticking indicating they are carrying blue, like Joe stated.
Jose, I also agree with Joe that is a very nice bird!
Enjoy your next fly! Don M. Mac's Rollers
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mirollers
9 posts
Mar 03, 2010
6:35 AM
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Pogohawk...The LAST thing I am is one concerned with color but if you know a little about it, it can be quite useful. You have a couple of things working here...what you have are a red series cock and a blue series hen that are both carrying the "spread" factor which is why they are lavender and black respectively. It also appears they are both carrying "checker" and "t-pattern" for pattern and likely "bar" as it is recessive to both, that is, because the checker and t-pattern are dominate to bar that's what both bird's phenotype (or what they LOOK like or show physically) is. This mating will produce red checkers, red t-pattern checkers, lavenders, meally's, black checkers, black t-pattern checkers, blue checkers, and blue t-pattern checkers (did I list them all?)- all in either cocks OR hens. They could also produce "barred" birds if one of them is carrying the bar pattern, which I suspect from the photo. If they do produce "bar" then certainly one of the parents is carrying it. Even more interesting is if their colors were reversed - make the hen a lavender and the cock the black self. With this mating you will still get all the colors indicated above but all the blue series birds (the blacks and blues) will be hens and all the red series birds (red and lavender) will be cocks. The old notebook by Joe Quinn from 1971 does a far better job than I and it may be worth a read to you. The reading of it can be a bit over the top in places but if you spend the time with it and have a bit of an analytical brain it contains a weath of information.
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2010 6:38 AM
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Pogohawk
31 posts
Mar 03, 2010
8:35 AM
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Thank you all for the great knowledge. Its awesome to have guys like you to fire questions at. I'll post some pics of the babies in the next couple weeks. Thanks again.
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155
1186 posts
Mar 03, 2010
9:55 AM
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Pogohawk: this hen is hitting 15 to 20 all the time she is very consistent in the air and people that had been to my house always notice that hen how good she is!
JMUrbon: thanks for the info
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~Jose Jimenez Aka Evilloft~
.Meas Arizona. .Compton.
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
608 posts
Mar 03, 2010
5:05 PM
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Just to make sure I get this.
If you breed two birds that express the "spread" trait, then both the father and mother gave the gene for it to be expressed. A pigeon carrying only one gene (hetrozygous), would not express the trait.
In other words, if you breed two birds carrying and showing "spread" (like above) all the offspring will carry and express the "spread" trait. Your pairing will only give you Lavendars or Black.
If you breed two birds not expresssing the "spread" gene, but are carriers for the trait, 1 out of 4 should express/show the spread trait. 2 out of four would carry/not show the trait. And 1 of the 4 would not carry/ show the trait.
Is this correct?
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RT Williams
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donnie james
945 posts
Mar 03, 2010
8:22 PM
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hay rt,
please give me a private email at PFRC_1@yahoo.com and thanks for doing that
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Robert
35 posts
Mar 04, 2010
1:26 PM
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rt,
Spread is an autosomal dominant gene. Any bird having the spread gene will be spread - a blue will be black and an ash-red will be a lavender or a variation of lavender. There is no visual difference between a homozygous (double factor, pure) spread or a heterozygous (single factor, impure) spread. Spread is epistatic and masks patterns and most colour modifiers.
Consequently, a spread pigeon could mask any of the pattern series genes, i.e. T-pattern chequer, dark chequer, light chequer, bar or barless.
A pair of homozygous spread pigeons will breed only spread offspring. When a homozygous spread is bred with a bar or chequer all the young will be heterozygous for spread. If two heterozygous spread are paired together a percentage of their offspring will be patterned, the pattern dependant on the patterns the parent birds carry.
As each bird has two colour patterns at the pattern locus they can be any combination under the spread, e.g. chequer and bar, bar and bar, etc. Unless you know what the parent birds are bred from it is difficult to predict what patterns a pair of heterozygous spread birds will breed.
The "lavender" above is a typical spread ash-red bar; chequered spread ash-red are variably marked with reddish lacing or look like smudgy red chequer. It is not apparent what patterns the black is masking, although sometimes the underlying pattern is visible.
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 1:34 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
609 posts
Mar 05, 2010
12:02 PM
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Thanks Robert. I was not aware the spread "trait" was a dominate autosome.
I thought that spread was recessive, and reguired both chromosomes to posses the trait.
Thanks
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 12:07 PM
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JMUrbon
941 posts
Mar 05, 2010
12:40 PM
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Mirollers you mentioned that if they produce a barred bird than one of the parents must be carrying bar but I have always been told that both birds have to carry bar to get bars. They dont have to show bars but they have to carry it. Is this true. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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mirollers
10 posts
Mar 05, 2010
2:16 PM
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Again, I am only interested in the aerial qualities of the birds but again state that some knowledge of genetics can be quite useful. The order of pattern dominance from highest to lowest is T-pattern – Checker – Bar – Barless, that is T-pattern is dominant to checker, checker is dominate to bar, and bar dominate to barless. For this discussion, let’s not be concerned with barless, and only discuss the three others. Good catch JMUrbon…I should have proof read my posting a bit closer and been more specific. The lavender cock on my monitor anyway, makes me suspect him to be a bar pattern and, if he is, then he by definition must be homozygous bar or +//+. (Please note that + is the notation for bar for either sex, C is the notation of checker for cocks, and c is the notation for checker in hens.). For the pair to produce bars the dark checker hen must be also carrying bar or c//+. My posting should have said, “If they do produce “bar” then certainly the hen must also be carrying it” and not “If they do produce “bar” then certainly one of the parents is carrying it”. That is why you can have a pair of checkers that produce bars provided they are C//+ for the cock, meaning he is carrying checker and bar at the pattern locus and the hen is c//+ also meaning she is carry checker and bar at the pattern locus. If you do a Punnet square, for this mating it will yield 75% checkers and 25% bars. If either parent is homozygous checker, even if one is homozygous bar, all they will produce is 100% checker pattern. Further, if both parents are bar, again by definition, they must be homozygous bar (+//+) and they will produce 100% offspring that are bar. Hope that helps clear it up and sorry for my confusing previous post.
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JMUrbon
943 posts
Mar 05, 2010
9:30 PM
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Well Mirollers I know very little about color genetics and probably more than I need to know to be honest with you. It is very obvious to me that you have much more knowledge than I in that area but I have had rollers for nearly 30 years and have always been told that it takes two bars to make bars.Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Squabby*32
204 posts
Mar 05, 2010
10:33 PM
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Hey Joe,
I bred a red bar cock to a rec red hen and got a red bar wht flt squeeker.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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JMUrbon
944 posts
Mar 05, 2010
10:36 PM
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Well Jeff Rec red is a different story. The rec red maskes different colors and modifiers. Plus the Rec red undoubtedly had barring in the background. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Squabby*32
206 posts
Mar 05, 2010
10:41 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up for me Joe. I appreciate it.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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Robert
36 posts
Mar 06, 2010
2:20 AM
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mirollers,
Re: post #10.
C//+ and c//+ do not represent a chequered cock and chequered hen; C//+ indicates a chequer heterozygous for bar, and c//+ (+//c) would represent a blue bar heterozygous for barless, and would be applicable to birds of either sex.
Upper and lower case symbols indicate a particular gene's relationship to the wild type/blue bar, e.g. recessive red - 'e' - recessive to blue bar; chequer - 'C' - is dominant to blue bar.
The pattern (C series) is symbolised thus, in order of dominance:
CT* > C > +c* > c
T-pattern chequer > chequer > bar > barless.
N.B.
* indicates the preceding letter is superscripted.
In his 'Notebook' Joe Quinn doesn't specify chequer types, i.e. dark chequer, light chequer.
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2010 2:24 AM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
610 posts
Mar 06, 2010
6:56 PM
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I had a red check hen and grizzle Cock give me two young with Bars last year. It was open loft so I cant gaurantee the father, however none of the other cocks in the loft are barred. ??
Just saying if they carry the gene you can get it to pop up, even if not seen in the phenotype.
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 5:31 PM
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JMUrbon
949 posts
Mar 06, 2010
9:07 PM
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Rt they dont have to be barred they just have to have it in their background. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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