TheGame
691 posts
Mar 06, 2010
4:59 PM
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What does extra protien do to our breeders/birds?? I was told told anything over 18% is unhealthy for pigeons and can cause liver damage. Is this true?
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Squabby*32
213 posts
Mar 06, 2010
9:57 PM
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First I heard of it. I give my breeders 28% and they are fine. Just my thoughts.
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DJJeffman Spinners
ATAPWGIYAHTLY
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steve49
453 posts
Mar 07, 2010
5:59 AM
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i also have heard excess protein is not used by the birds, but i'm not sure if it has any negative sides. good question, Shiv
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3586 posts
Mar 07, 2010
6:50 AM
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Extra Protein and Calcium is good for birds that are breeding.helps in cases like egg laying problems ect.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3912 posts
Mar 07, 2010
7:29 AM
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I will check in here and say that because "protein" is the most expensive element of our feed bill, giving your birds any more than say about 16%, is to throw the excess protein content and additional cost down the drain. The bird is not going to assimilate the excess protein, so be smart, save your money.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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birdman
800 posts
Mar 07, 2010
7:43 AM
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A body can only use so much protein in the same way that a gas tank can only hold so much gas. If you fill up the tank beyond its requirement the excess is going to spill out.
If the bird isn't actively using the extra protein then its body is going to flush it out of its system and will put extra strain on the kidneys and liver.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4185 posts
Mar 07, 2010
8:04 AM
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Tony is right on. The birds start to get demenishing returns at about 16% and the bird begins to excrete the access from then on. So if you are feeding 28%; the last 12% is just poop. You could be feeding other usable nutrients instead.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
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fhtfire
2484 posts
Mar 07, 2010
12:02 PM
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Guys,
Excessive Protein IS needed during breeding season, Moult, stress and even flying hard.....
It is NOT needed during "normal" times...like non breeding season and lock down time....\
Everyone has to use common sense here...if you are breeding the extra protein is a MUST...because the birds will use the extra portein. The babies need the extra viddles during the growing process...young birds need teh extra protein when they are developing and still maturing....the breeders for sure need it...they are using MORE energy to feed the young fly up and down for more feedings as well as the stress levels. Proteins not only used to develop muscle, Proteins are used to fight disease, ward off stress, assist in the development of new feathers during the moult...etc etc.
Look at it like this...the more fuel being used the more fuel you will need.
I myself look at it this way....every bird, every animal every human uses different amounts of protein, vitamins, minerals and proteins. Basically we have no way of telling who needs more or less. Its like looking at three identical cars but unless you pop the hood you have no idea what the motor needs to go. One care could have a diesel, one could ba a V8, one a V6 and one a 4 banger. Some will need different fuels to make the car go....but with the bird you cant pop the hood and verify. No owners manual telling you they need 91 octane and not 87 octane.
So..during flying season, breeding season, moult and young bird flying...my birds get a 28% protein that is cut with wheat and milo and sauflower...my brother did all the math (he is a nerd)...and with my Breeders I am close to 20-22% on my ratios and same with the young birds (YOUNG) and my kit bird mix during flying for teenagers and older birds is about 16-17%.
So Protein is NEEDED during the abnormal times and minimal protein is needed during the everyday normal function of the bird. Again...you fuel the fire...you need more fuel.
I understand the only usuing so much..but I guarantee that NOBODY can say that all the birds are created equal in protein intake and protein needs...and to be honest they Poop out what they dont need...but I myself would rather be a little high then to low.
As far as cost savings getting the higher percentage food..you are talking nickles and dimes. I will throw a handfull of nickles or dimes down the drain to make sure all my birds are getting what they need.
Our birds are athletes and should be treated as such. The everyday human only needs XYZ Carbs, Protein etc....now take and athlete...I guarantee they are consuming more then the average bear and using more....do you guys think the labels on all your foods for average daily intake is the law..NOPE...some need more some need less....again...athletes need more fuel and use more...Plain and simple....our birds in tip top shape..flying hard and rolling hard or breeding hard...they WILL use the extra plain and simple...most numers are based on average intake %...AVERAGE..meaning some are higher and some are lower %....that is why some that are getting fat...or getting lean..or building muscles or are athletes have diet experts and do tests to find out what you need and build a plan around you....we cant do that to our birds..so you have to go above average to as a catch all.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 12:12 PM
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fhtfire
2485 posts
Mar 07, 2010
12:16 PM
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Think about this....when we are flying our birds hard preparing for a comp or even not...you notice they are getting light....what do you do....throw the extra mix to them....why...they use it...they need it or they will get skinny, weak and then get diseases. Breeders are the same way....they need the extra.
Protein is a tool....when you have a big job..you need a big hammer or big Protein %...little job..little hammer....lower Protein %.
That is why during the Winter my birds get standard mix..they are on cruiser mode...during breeding, fly season and moult...they get the pellet mix.....I have had fliers come over and ask how long I had been breeding...I will say 8 months...they are like no way..your breeders look so happy and healthy....why....extra viddles man.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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michael salus
156 posts
Mar 07, 2010
12:28 PM
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Paul.... I'm confused...lol
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MJ
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pigeon pete
518 posts
Mar 07, 2010
1:08 PM
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Paul,
You are perfectly correct in that each bird has it's own individual needs in any given scenario.
Then there is the fanciers ideas as to what they think a bird needs for that scenario.
Niether the bird nor the fancier knows acurately what those percentages should be.
My breeders get fed cafeteria style, so one bird may just eat peas, and another may vary it's diet more.
I can't think of a reason why a bird would need an excessive amount of any content in it's diet, unless it is excesive fibre to clean out or weaken the bird for example.
I would rather use the word sufficient rather than excessive.
The hardest thing would be to know what is adequate and what is overly excessive.
I never even look at percentages in foodstuffs.
If my birds are lacking strength muscle or stamina, then I will either adjust the food type and/or amounts, and/or change the flying schedule.
This is complicated enough for me without working out difficult sums, as my wife says (half of the words she uses are her own! ) " I am numberlexic".
Pete.
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 1:11 PM
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fhtfire
2486 posts
Mar 07, 2010
1:34 PM
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Ok,
Just talked to Tony..let me clarify. I don NOT feed staight 28%. To much is not good because the kineys have to work overtime. I also cut my feed to a lower percentage...for both the lower percentage and to cut the pellets with hard grains.
28% pure would be used for feeder pigeons to fatten them up for market...so usually market birds dont live long enough to worry about kidneys.
Now your athletic birds...Homers, High Fliers, Rollers...they need the extra if they are in comp form or in tip top shape. They can handle the extra protein because there bodies are for efficient due to our training practices...so they can handle the extra proteins.
Basically you have to have your birds in shape for an extended period so they can handle the extra protein or until they are at the point..where there body NEEDS the extra protein...so basically...if I was out of shape..rode the treadmill for three or 4 days and then started chomping on Hard boiled eggs by the dozen ets....well...my body has not been worked hard enough or LONG enough to actually change my metabolism..so I would be hurting myself...now..if I am working out hard for numerous weeks and I am getting into good shape...I can then increase my Protein intake because my body needs...
So..to make a short story long...High % is only give when NEEDED...if not dont waste the money. I hope that makes sense.
Pigeon Pete.....You are right...just feed what they need....keep it simple.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4189 posts
Mar 07, 2010
2:00 PM
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Listen up!!!I will only say this one more time! Birds can only use up to approximately 16% protein regardless of the stress they are under and anything beyond that is just excreted. If you are using feed that contains more than 16% of volume being protein you are feeding your birds too much protein and with each % more than 16 it is being turned to just shit. Now if you are feeding just 14% protein and you increase the stress on the bird you can bring it up as high as 16% to help them. Any more than that; the extra just turns to shit. You got to quit thinking "if 16% is real good, so 26% will be even better". It don't work that way.
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"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
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Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 2:00 PM
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Richard
131 posts
Mar 07, 2010
3:13 PM
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If the droppings are brown you are feeding too much protein. It is like a couple of beers are good too many OH well figure it out.
Richard
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fhtfire
2488 posts
Mar 07, 2010
3:44 PM
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Nick,
One more thing...I myself do not feed the higher % all the time....my kit birds only get the mix 1 day on a for day cycle maybe 2 days if they need it....the rest of the time it is wheat and milo.
Breeders get the High % 8 months out of the year...the other 4 months plain old 16%.
During the cold..I boost the percentage of protein in my kit birds because they use more energy and are stressed to keep warm. If I dont they will get lean on me..with the combination of flying and cold. Now if they are not flying and just sitting in the box on lockdown....they dont need the higher %.
I am not battling to battle...its just that % of Protein Carbs Vitamins Minerals is not absolute...not in humans or animals..its based on the individual...hence the reason I can eat what I want and stay lean..my brother will gain weight..but if we were rollers....a low % would make me get skinny and roll down and then you would cull me Nick..my brother on the other hand would get the feed cut..LOL...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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birdman
801 posts
Mar 07, 2010
3:55 PM
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Man, those are some long winded posts.
I think I said everything you guys are repeating in like 4 sentences...lol.
Oh, and one more thing, the body uses its calcium to help flush the excess protein out of the system. Can you guess what the excess calcium does to the kidneys ?
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 4:08 PM
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fhtfire
2489 posts
Mar 07, 2010
4:32 PM
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Sorry birdman....sometimes you have to go into more detail....what you said in your first post pretty much summed it up...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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wishiwon2
308 posts
Mar 07, 2010
5:09 PM
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Some good discussion, I hope we dont miss the forest in looking at the trees.
I can swear to you that pigeons dont "need" a higher % protein ration. It may well do somethings for them that you desire, but they dont "need" it. I have fed pigeons on straight red wheat for months at a time, while raising babies with them etc. They did quite fine. I did it because I was a boy, and that was what I had, but it worked and worked pretty well. I agree that there are better ways to feed a pigeon, but that is our preference, not their requirement.
I might add that caution should be used in selecting the source for increased protein and avoid extremely high % protein diets for pigeons (non-ruminating livestock in general). Some sources of high protein also possess combinations of amino groups that are or can be toxic. Proteins require specific enzymes to 'dis assemble' them metabolically. If the organism doesnt produce them or isnt supplemented with them, toxicity is the result. Beans and other legumes are classic examples. Heat destroys some/many of those amino blocks, but caution is still advised in selecting the source for protein. Dont go to any extremes ...
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2010 5:17 PM
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Richard
132 posts
Mar 07, 2010
6:38 PM
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Flyers or breeders. Each need a different set of feeds.
I can say that too much protein will cause your flyers to fly fast and roll less. On the other hand when your flyers are sloppy up the protein and watch the fun. No not too much or they will go in race mode. Really the name of the game is to know which feeds to use to get the proper results you desire in your birds.
Breeders feeding young is an altogether different story, than the flyers.
Wintering over your birds is also a different story as far as feeding goes.
I use a lot of single seeds. From there I add the grains I need for the circumstance at hand.
The best advice I can give is learn how your birds will react to each individual grain.
Another thing watch the birds what they eat first as they know what their body needs.
Richard
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birdman
802 posts
Mar 07, 2010
7:37 PM
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Paul, I'm just kidding around...lol
On a funny note, one of my sons just came home with a boat load of protein supplements to start his "loading phase".
Russ
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pigeon pete
519 posts
Mar 08, 2010
4:44 AM
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Nick wrote,
Listen up!!!I will only say this one more time!
Now that I do find hard to believe, (smile).
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3914 posts
Mar 08, 2010
5:23 AM
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Hey Jon, I can understand that as kids, we make due with what is lying around or what we can bribe out of our parents or friends. But if you were feeding 100% wheat to your birds, they were getting about 15% protein, 71% carbo and close to 2% fat. all in all, except for being slightly low on fat, the diet seemed at just about the proper percentages for good health.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3915 posts
Mar 08, 2010
5:26 AM
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Here is a question to think about, if the grains and cereals contain all the proper nutrients for healthy pigeons, why do squabs fed a pellet diet higher in protein, gain weight faster and are more robust than the grain fed?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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J_Star
2259 posts
Mar 08, 2010
5:39 AM
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Because it is processed and other ingredients are added. I think they add ground up meats and soy in it. Have you seen chickens in the grocery stores!! They are as big as small turkeys. How they become so big!!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2010 5:39 AM
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winwardrollers
442 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:02 AM
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Tony
..why do squabs fed a pellet diet higher in protein, gain weight faster and are more robust than the grain fed?
I would guess that parents can pump the squabs easier and more often with food. The young only need so much fat. As soon as the young are feeding good in the weaning pen, I start peeling the fat off the young to get them up in the air.
I wonder how the wild birds do so well?
bwinward
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3916 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:46 AM
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"I wonder how the wild birds do so well?"
Huh, non-sequitar?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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winwardrollers
443 posts
Mar 08, 2010
8:39 AM
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Sequitur....u
bwinward
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3917 posts
Mar 08, 2010
8:43 AM
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Don't taze me bro! ;-)
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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TheGame
696 posts
Mar 08, 2010
7:47 PM
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What I have noticed with my birds is that after they eat they go and drink water. If a squab is being fed only grains it is probably harder for the bird to break it down so it can be digested. As for pellets once the pellets get waterlogged they break down easier and turn into mush faster making it easier for the squabs to digest.
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