Pogohawk
111 posts
Apr 20, 2010
10:49 AM
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This morning I went into the breeding loft and one of better hens was dead. I had watched her feed babies at 10:00pm last night with no sign of illness. I examined the body this morning and could still find no sign of illness. No canker soars, leashens, mucous, no sign of anything I know to look for. She even had a full crop and looks feels like a perfectly healthy pigeon. She was only 1 year old so I ruled out heart attack.
On that note, her nest mate, seemed weak 4 days ago. He wouldn't fly unless coxed to. But seemed in perfect health that afternoon, I should have thought more of it. He is isolated now. I examined him as well and can find no sign of illness, except that he is slightly thin. Again no mucous, soars or anything along those lines. Both babies seem healthy too and are isolated as well. I know this could be a number of things but was hoping for some suggestions? Thanks.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2010 10:50 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1733 posts
Apr 20, 2010
11:31 AM
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Worms would be my guess. A sudden overwhelming hatch of worms.
Thom
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Pogohawk
112 posts
Apr 20, 2010
12:25 PM
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Two more birds are now displaying symptoms. Drooping wings and clear droppings. Both now isolated. One of these birds had a small amount of mucous at the base of the throat.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2396 posts
Apr 20, 2010
12:48 PM
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Pogo,
Like Thom said. I'd bet on worms. I had the same thing happen this winter to a couple hens. They looked healthy and well one minute and dropped off the perch the next minute. I had a necropsy done by an avian pathologist and it turns out they had some worms...not enouogh to visibly affect the appearance of the bird's condition, but apparrently if they all lay eggs that hatch at the same time and the larvae migrate through the bird's tissues through a vital organ, the bird can expire suddenly. In my case it was liver failure. This was news to me. I had never heard of worms killing in this manner. I thought it was only through emaciating the host. In any case, he recommended treating all pigeons every 90 days with alternating medications....Moxydectin as one essential one. I had many recommendations for antibiotic treatments etc, which would have done me no good, so don't rely on internet suggestions alone. You should put an expired bird in the refrigerator (not the freezer!) and send it to them in a styrofoam container packed in ice to keep them cool to prevent tissue damage...or drop them off if it's not too far. Most every state has such pathologists availiable, but you may have to do a little digging. Good luck.
Cliff
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Pogohawk
113 posts
Apr 20, 2010
3:19 PM
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Most birds are showing symptoms like clear dropping and fluttering eyes at this time. I am now treating with the only medication I have at the moment. Tony's Treasure, which treats for, respiratory distress, canker, sinusitis, air sacculitis, enteritis, diarrhea and weight loss. Its the best I have for now until my wormer medication comes in the mail along with probiotics. I have also contacted a local avian vet and they will be by tomorrow in the morning. Thanks for the help so far and any more suggestions or comments are more than appreciated.
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Sound Rollers
308 posts
Apr 20, 2010
4:19 PM
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Better get some of this IVOMEC SHEEP DRENCH 960ml (Merial)
John
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Pogohawk
114 posts
Apr 20, 2010
5:19 PM
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I'm not sure what I ordered in the way of wormer but I'll let you know what it is when I get it in the mail. I am also shipping droppings out in the mail in the morning to a specialist to be examined. In the mean time another fancier suggested that this might be ecoli, any thoughts?
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2010 8:42 PM
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J_Star
2297 posts
Apr 21, 2010
4:50 AM
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This might help you understand your problem. compare the symptoms.
Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis) Made Simple
By Jay Alnimer (J_Star) 2007
Paratyphoid or Salmonella infection tends to stay hidden until the birds are stressed. Reproduction is the usual stress which triggers the clinical infections. There are other bacteria which can mimic the disease but they make the birds sick much less frequently.
Paratyphoid is common in breeding cocks which can become sick and die very quickly. The cock is fine one day and dead the next with no apparent reason or an obvious clue to the fancier.
Paratyphoid is spread by:
1. Inhalation of dust containing the pathogen.
2. Contaminated feed (insects, mice and rats).
3. Dirty feed troughs and water bowls.
4. Mating.
5. Transmission from the hen to the egg.
6. Feeding the nestlings with infected crop milk and billing.
7. Chronic carriers, which are pigeons that appear healthy after surviving salmonella infection, but shed the pathogen at irregular intervals and thus pose a risk to the current flock and their progeny.
Symptoms of the disease:
Acute form which affects young pigeons: Enteritis with pulpy, mucoid, greenish droppings; once organs (liver, kidneys, spleen) have become infected, there is growth retardation, emaciation and death. Embryos infected with salmonellae frequently die in ovo or during the first few days of life.
Chronic form which affects the adult pigeons are including but not limited to inflammation that causes a thickening of the joints, especially the elbow joints, wing or leg lameness, disorders of balance and torsion of the neck. Difficulty in eating or digesting, mainly water filled crop, won’t fly up to perches. Old birds demonstrate dropped wings, swollen foot (usually left foot), hens become barren and eggs fail to hatch.
There are many and varied symptoms which cause confusion among fanciers for treatment but the birds appear to be ailing in different ways. Fanciers often confuse this disease with PMV due to the symptoms.
Treatment:
Treatment consists of the use of certain antibiotics, preferably one to which the particular strain of bacteria has been show to be susceptible to. When “shooting from the hop” use antibiotics which have a higher degree of success such as Baytril, Saraflox, Cephalexin and Amoxicillin. When the birds are not producing eggs or feeding young, use Baytril. If you treat while they are in reproduction, the best choice is Amoxicillin. Treat for ten days, no less and no longer. Treatment success can be improved when the birds are vaccinated with SalBac while on the antibiotic. Do not vaccinate when the birds are setting eggs or feeding young as they will neglect their duties because of feeling so badly from the vaccine.
However, some cured birds may remain as future carriers. Therefore, the problem may continue until all carriers are lost or destroyed. When this illness is diagnosed, it is better to consult with a vet.
Jay
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Pogohawk
115 posts
Apr 21, 2010
7:12 AM
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Thank you very much Jay. That was very informative, I will be ordering some Amoxicillin today as some of the birds are on young and eggs.
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Pogohawk
130 posts
May 12, 2010
7:28 PM
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I'm at a lose. I reluctantly treated all of my breeders with Amoxicillinum with no result. I also treated for Cocci a week and a half prior with no result. Resting the birds between treatments. I still have watery droppings and birds becoming weak and disoriented. They show no other signs of illness. I have another hen that went sick today and can hardly walk. She has a full crop, little weight loss and her mouth looks clear. I have also been using PrimaLac, a probiotic once a week. Any other ideas or suggestions?
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Pogohawk
131 posts
May 12, 2010
11:39 PM
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Yes I did have two youngsters die in the nest and had to hand feed two others from different pairs. I've also had a high rate of infertile eggs this year as well.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1766 posts
May 13, 2010
3:26 AM
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You must have a very resistant strain. I would try the Avian Powder and Avian Solution as Joe suggested.
Good luck!
Thom
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2408 posts
May 13, 2010
6:46 AM
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Pogo,
Treating your birds without knowing the illness or cause of death is an exercise in futility. You stand to lose more birds in the process than if you just bite the bullet, get a necropsy report on the cause of death and a fecal exam from Foys to help you determine which medications you really need. I would advise against taking the well-meaning advice of remote pigeon men on an internet list. You need a diagnosis and the proper meds. You can pull down the health of your entire flock trying hit and miss meds, which you have probably already done to some extent with the Amoxicillin.
Good luck.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 6:49 AM
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Scott
3030 posts
May 13, 2010
7:22 AM
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I would go with JDAs advise.. doubtful it is worms.. once the kidneys go they are done.
One of the biggest things that you can do to combat such problems is keeping the loft acidic with apple cider vinagar and acidic loft dressing.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Pinwheel
240 posts
May 13, 2010
10:04 AM
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I would recommend the necropsy from a avian pathologist and have a contact to a certified avian veterinarian or vet that has knowledge of birds if your having this much trouble. But I am biased.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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michael salus
222 posts
May 13, 2010
11:20 AM
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Scott, I used to give Apple Cider vinegar years ago, but stopped. I've been thinking of starting up again, would a cap full to a gallon of water be the right measurement.. also would you give it every day.... Thanks!
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MJ
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 11:44 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2409 posts
May 13, 2010
12:49 PM
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Mike,
The dosage for ACV is not too critical. The objective is just to acidify the water a little. Basically it's a tablespoon per gallon, but I usually just dump a little in the water. It's ok to use with other vitamins, etc. including pro-bios (if you happen to use it in the water) I give it most days...but at least every few of days I just use pure water with no additives.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 12:50 PM
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michael salus
223 posts
May 13, 2010
4:03 PM
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Thanks Cliff... That's about what I thought I used to give. It's been a month of wind, but it is supposed to change starting tomorrow, so maybe I can get some of the young out of your birds up...
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MJ
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2412 posts
May 17, 2010
9:31 AM
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Mike,
Nothing is worse than wind....good luck with it. Remember that I have a bird in my A-team off that hen I gave you.....it's a hen, too. If you breed anything off this line that you like in the air, keep her in mind for future matings for you.
Cliff
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Pogohawk
132 posts
May 17, 2010
1:34 PM
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I have been using apple cider vinegar twice a week in the water. I have also had a dropping analysis done by a lab and the results were negative for Ecoli and Salmenilla. They have also been on amixicillenum for the past 6 days and it does not seem to be helping. My lofts have also been sanitized with bleach and thoroughly dried before birds where replaced.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 1:36 PM
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michael salus
225 posts
May 17, 2010
2:18 PM
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Pogo, This might be a long shot, but have you recently bought a new batch of grain. It could be contaminated... seems to me I read somewhere else they were having the same problem and they figured it to be the feed. Just a thought... Good luck.
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MJ
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Pogohawk
133 posts
May 17, 2010
2:57 PM
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I have considered that and got rid of my old bag and got some new. Still, I have friends that use the same feed and have had no problems this year.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1775 posts
May 17, 2010
3:49 PM
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Pogohawk, Why not try to stop the problem even if we don't know what it is. Change their water supply to store bought spring water (50 cents to a dollar a gal.) bleach their water containers, and food dispensers (whatever style you use). I spray my loft and kit boxes with A.C.V., not the Bragg's but the cheap $3.00 a gal kind at 100% strength. The kit box smells like a salad bowl for a few days but it keeps down on the flies. Change the floor litter and bleach the floor if you have not already done so. New nest bowls for every pair. You had them checked for E-coli and Salmonella with negative results, and I assume for worms.:)
That's my thoughts maybe someone else can think of more preventive measures.
Thom
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Pogohawk
134 posts
May 17, 2010
4:24 PM
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Thanks Thom. I have a new development in the loft, one of my young birds has come down sick and thin. I force fed the little guy about 2 hours ago. When I went to go feed the rest of my young birds I noticed him in his cage throwing up the seed I had fed him earlier along with a greenish fluid. I have not heard of this, does this bring up anything new? I will also get purified water at the store this evening. I usually let the water sit for a day to help evaporate any chlorine within so that it does not kill my medications.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 4:27 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1776 posts
May 17, 2010
6:40 PM
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Pogohawk, I wish I had a Chrystal ball to scry into so I could vision the malady. Unfortunately all I have is a book on Pigeon Health. I am more confused then ever after searching through all of the possibilities. From everything I read it still comes back to Paratyphoid. I'm admittedly not the brightest bulb on the tree but J Star is. The only things I can think of, he covered. With this possible exception which I am certain you have checked for but I'll mention anyway, Wet Canker.
I wish I could help more, hopefully someone else will figure it out.
Thom
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 6:40 PM
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Pogohawk
135 posts
May 17, 2010
7:30 PM
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Thom, I think you may be on the something with Trichomoniasis. I have done some reading and the symptoms of the birds seem to be very close. I do have medication for Trickomoniasis but will not be able to use any for at least 3-4 more days. The birds are currently getting over Amoxicillin and need to rest for a few days. I will keep my research up and thank you for the help so far.
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Pogohawk
137 posts
May 23, 2010
4:37 PM
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Hey Thom, I treated all of the birds with Meditrich. For the prevention of Crop Cancer (treichomoniasis) in pigeons. The medication is basically Metronidazole. It seems to be helping and some of the birds have put on a little weight. I hope I'm not getting a head of myself, but I think we may have found the problem. I'll let you know how they do over the next few days.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2010 4:37 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1785 posts
May 25, 2010
3:34 PM
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Pogohawk, How are the birds doing? Better, I hope!
Thom
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Pogohawk
139 posts
May 25, 2010
9:39 PM
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I haven't had any new outbreaks and all of the birds seem to be doing a bit better. Some of them could put on a little more weight, but in general they are doing better. I still have a close eye on all of them and hope they get back to 100% soon.
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Pogohawk
144 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:12 PM
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Thom, I still have a one bird that keeps throwing up a very smelly clearish green fluid. Anything you know of?
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1819 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:45 PM
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Pogohawk,
Vomiting- Associated with either irritation to the lining of the crop or stomach (seen with wet canker, some forms of respiratory infection, bacterial or fungal infections of the crop will and following ingestion of toxic or irritant substances) or alternatively severe internal disease.
By Dr. Colin Walker "The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management"
Pogohawk, It still seems as though it might be wet canker, are there any other symptoms?
Thom
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 7:02 PM
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Pogohawk
145 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:46 PM
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Only weakness and lack of appetite. The bird died this evening and there was a lot of fluid around the body. I am taking it in for examination tomorrow. Very strange.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1820 posts
Jun 09, 2010
3:42 AM
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Let us know what they find, please.
Sorry about the bird.
Thom
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