nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4343 posts
May 31, 2010
8:48 AM
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If you are in competition and your birds are not flying well why would you commit an action of disqualification to end your fly? Why not let your birds finish the fly?
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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BA Rollers
343 posts
May 31, 2010
9:16 AM
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What does it matter to you? Are you now the roller flying morals police? The guy paid his entry fee he can do what the hell he wants. If he wants to DQ his birds then so be it, move on the next house.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
660 posts
May 31, 2010
9:20 AM
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Nick,
I tend to agree with Brian on this. There may legit reasons for DQing your own birds. At any rate it is the flyers option if he cares to do it!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4345 posts
May 31, 2010
10:56 AM
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It does not matter to me. It only matters as the competition goes; for the sake of honest and pure competition. Who is to say that during the last of the fly that same kit of birds gets it together and makes a difference in the competition?
Should a flier who commits an action to disqualify his kit be allowed to compete in the following year(s)in that competition?
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Alohazona
710 posts
May 31, 2010
11:31 AM
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Nick,
I've seen things with competitions get overly tight with rules and regulations,we need them,yes, but let's not always be falling asleep with the the rule book over our face.We follow rules every where we go,when an exception comes up deal with it the best you can, with in the current contexts and move forward.....Aloha,Todd
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
661 posts
May 31, 2010
11:39 AM
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Nick,
I don't think they should be DQ'd for the next year. Now someone that shoots one of their own pigeons in the middle of a competition should be DQ'd for life
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Alohazona
711 posts
May 31, 2010
11:44 AM
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As for the disqualifying the kit thing.We had a guy who would blow a pack of firecrackers to get his birds off the roof.We humbly re-named them firecracker rollers.Forever and always except someone back to compete,unless something was done criminally with malice...Aloha,Todd
p.s.honor without compassion is useless!
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Alohazona
712 posts
May 31, 2010
12:35 PM
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Joe,
Have you ever done something, or said something you wish hadn't,I know I have.Once you get past the emotion of the incident,a true realization,or truth surfaces.It is not to condone or condemn,but to deal with the situation justly, and with a mature mind.Not always easy to do,but its the right thing to do...Aloha,Todd
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
662 posts
May 31, 2010
1:35 PM
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Oh yeah Todd, more often than I like to admit. I just think someone who would shoot one of their own pigeons in a comp, really doesn't need to be in the hobby. I have never known anyone to do anything that crass but that was one of the reasons given for the WC rule on accurate count on birds in a kit.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 1:36 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2957 posts
May 31, 2010
2:11 PM
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Nick...
Maybe the flyer had a 5 bird break and decided to dq...
In my opinion i will always take a 5 bird break than a dq...and for culling a bird in the middle of fly if he lands he will be in the bbque pit that same day.!
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Scott
3052 posts
May 31, 2010
4:06 PM
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I will answer this since I assume that it relates to me for doing such.. I did so because I can.. lets make no mistake.. anytime you are on the bottom of the score sheet you blew it whether it be a DQ or some measly points.
You can call it poor managment.. crap kits.. or what have you.
And that is exactly what I flew on that day so I DQed them to move on.. crap is crap
Personaly I could care less at this point for flying crap on a given day.. I have blown many flys and flown many crap kits .. but I have also been on the other end of the spectrum for than once... just curious what is your point is Nick
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 4:14 PM
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Scott
3053 posts
May 31, 2010
4:12 PM
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Yea DQ that bum Nick .. the less competion the better !!!
(Should a flier who commits an action to disqualify his kit be allowed to compete in the following year(s)in that competition?0
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 4:39 PM
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donnie james
1021 posts
May 31, 2010
4:32 PM
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hay nick,
mind well fly them out its not the birds folt the own need to be dq he didn't train them right and he/she need to rethink his/hers training program ............
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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JMUrbon
1044 posts
May 31, 2010
4:43 PM
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I guess that real reason is like Scott stated. Because he could. I could say with a bit of certainty that I would not have done it myself but as Scott had ststed that morning. He and the judge were already on a tight scedule to get to Pauls house on time and he had four birds out the entire time so why chance holding Pauls kit up when there was no doubt the kit was not going to regroup. It was Scotts call and only his to make. There is nothing that says he cant do it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4346 posts
May 31, 2010
4:44 PM
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Scott - I have never heard of purposely doing something to purposely get a kit DQ'd except for a flier working for an advantage to keep his kit from DQing during his fly. When that happens the flier is not only awarded with a DQ, but stands for possible expulsion from other events. I don't think it should be a part of a competition to do such a thing and the association just moves on and says "Oh well". Let the f-----g birds fly and be scored just like any other competition that humans involve themselves in; with animals or teams of humans.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4057 posts
May 31, 2010
5:12 PM
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Hey Nick, I think in the future, when I fly comp I will instigate a DQ should my birds not be scoring well. At least no one will criticize a low score as has happened to me, but I would then at least expect a pat on the back for participating. I mean if you are someone who stands a chance of getting dragged through the mud over a low score, it kinda makes sense doesn't it? All the power to Scott for doing so, I mean a DQ sounds way better than scoring zero points. Man knows his rules...
Note to self: team not scoring well...throw out an extra bird and get DQ'd... /note sarcasm
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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Bricksfall
35 posts
May 31, 2010
5:20 PM
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Actually I think what Scott did is commendable.You have to understand that we as competition fliers prepare for World Cup and Fall Fly all year every year. So flying in these events is strictly business. If Scott or anyone doesn't expect a significant improvement within the remaining time. All that flier is doing is being honest with himself. Why would you want to take that time from the next man. What Scott displayed was Respect for the event,respect and courtesy to the judge and his peers. I wish some of the fliers in our region had the commonsense to make such a call. Nick your little thing there read "What Is Life Without Honor". Well you tell me what is competition without Honor?
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GEORGE ALDANA
HIGH GRAVITY LOFT
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4347 posts
May 31, 2010
5:27 PM
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George - There would be no Honor in a competition when you just pull your team off the floor because they were not playing well.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4062 posts
May 31, 2010
5:33 PM
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Hey Nick, you seem to be making a good point, a couple years ago, the Lakers were getting beat really bad in the last game of the NBA Finals, what would happen if they had walked off the floor as they were playing so poorly?
But these are only pigeons and not so much is riding on them, no?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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kcfirl
645 posts
May 31, 2010
5:37 PM
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I have flown against Scott many times. In my opinion calling a DQ on himself was totally within the rules and his rights. There is nothing here to discuss.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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Bricksfall
36 posts
May 31, 2010
5:41 PM
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Nick, If you think a DQ is an award, I think your going to run out of room for all your awards. By the way you only got two 5 bird breaks in 20 minutes. Let's see 20min. to drive to your place,30min. at your place and about 20min. to get to the next man. So on fly day I guess you wasted an hour of valuable fly time. "Why Do This?"
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GEORGE ALDANA
HIGH GRAVITY LOFT
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Scott
3054 posts
May 31, 2010
6:12 PM
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Fun stuff LOL
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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RodSD
405 posts
May 31, 2010
6:13 PM
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I am torn between this topic because I don't know whether we are giving up too easily on the birds or to give the birds a chance to perform. I haven't been to a competition roller so I don't know whether they will improve as time goes by during the time alloted. What are your observations on those? I mean if they start crap, do they perform crap the whole time? If so, then calling it quits can save everybody's time. Now if they improve, then we might blame ourselves for giving up to soon or too early. Or perhaps rule makers can implement rule(s) to say what time you can quit after certain time the birds are flying. I would like to hear competitor's experience on this.
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 6:15 PM
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Scott
3055 posts
May 31, 2010
6:15 PM
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Here is one for you boys to mull over.. back when we were flying the CCRC hard.. we had a two birds out for two minute's DQ rule so that we didn't have to waste time with such kits.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
3056 posts
May 31, 2010
6:18 PM
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Rod.. the birds were working fine .. I had a few yearlings that couldn't handle the set up.. they weren't going to join the old birds and it was obvious.. it was a mess..if the birds were together and could score I would have handled it differently.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 7:00 PM
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steve49
510 posts
May 31, 2010
6:53 PM
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i understand now about the time constraints for calling a DQ, but i have seen kits flatten out during the middle of a fly, but turn it on again during the final 10 minutes, so there is the possibility of scoring more points, and maybe much more. again, its the flyers call, and i suppose its more of a respect to others thing than anything else. maybe we shouldn't look so hard at why, and just concentrate on those that did really good? i personally don't like flying on only one day, and be at the whim of the weather at either end of that day. ideally, we should be competing for a few days, with the best score or average being awarded, rather than just one crappy day for a years work. kinda like a playoff, best of 3 games or fly days in this case.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Scott
3057 posts
May 31, 2010
7:03 PM
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Just for you guys that don't know the scoop.. I had 4 birds that never joined the kit.. the core went up and these boneheads didn't.. and it was obvious that they never would.. it had nothing to do with a low score .. they were never able to score at any time.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
3058 posts
May 31, 2010
7:06 PM
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Tony.. is this someplace that you really want to go buddy ?
(Hey Nick, I think in the future, when I fly comp I will instigate a DQ should my birds not be scoring well. At least no one will criticize a low score as has happened to me, but I would then at least expect a pat on the back for participating. I mean if you are someone who stands a chance of getting dragged through the mud over a low score, it kinda makes sense doesn't it? All the power to Scott for doing so, I mean a DQ sounds way better than scoring zero points. Man knows his rules...)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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George R.
344 posts
May 31, 2010
7:42 PM
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Scott
Sounds like you pulled a " NO MAS " LOL
A DQ is just as bad as a low score or no score , I been there and done that !
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katyroller
731 posts
May 31, 2010
7:48 PM
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I can understand the decision to DQ the kit under the circumstances given. Staring at out birds is a waste of time, why not move on to the next flier? Every kit can have a crap fly. Do what has to be done and move on.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4072 posts
May 31, 2010
7:49 PM
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Hey Scott ole buddy, apparently you didn't get the intended sarcasm. Lighten up on the subtle threat, it becomes you. ;-)
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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George R.
345 posts
May 31, 2010
7:55 PM
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Katy
Thats the spirit , I would never DQ myself the birds could get together and do a Full turn in the last minute of the fly.
But thats just me as long as the rules are followed everything is cool .
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4073 posts
May 31, 2010
8:07 PM
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Hey George and all, I think Nick is just busting balls. A guy pays his fee, he can do what he wants within the context of the rules. Who would fault a guy for demanding a judge stand under his kit, he paid for it. Give him his due.
If Nick really believes people should lose out flying in subsequent flys, he can present it to the powers in the NBRC and World Cup. He won't because he doesn't believe it himself.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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George R.
346 posts
May 31, 2010
8:15 PM
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I agree Tony, Scott paid his money so he can do whatever he wants.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4348 posts
May 31, 2010
8:55 PM
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I don't think there was any misconduct involved. That made my one comment about being removed from future competition just a jab. It is just I could not believe that it actually happened and originally wrote it off as Scott joking. I learned as time went on that the event actually happened and it hit my "anti" everything I have ever learned button about competing, in anything.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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BA Rollers
344 posts
May 31, 2010
9:15 PM
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I actually took a DQ in our regionals on my second kit. My 9 year old trusty hen that has been in just about every competition kit I've flown for the past 8 years decided to bump going out. She has never bumped before ever. She landed on the roof and within about a minute or two a few cock birds decided to come down to her and landed as well. It wasn't a DQ at that point because time-in was never called. Rather than try making them fly I told the judge go ahead and DQ them so he could get to the next guys house since it was getting hot already.
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winwardrollers
467 posts
May 31, 2010
9:47 PM
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There is nothing more enjoyable than watching out birds for 20 minutes to see if they will kit....lol
bwinward
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
844 posts
May 31, 2010
10:44 PM
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Nick...Get over it!!
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2433 posts
Jun 01, 2010
6:43 AM
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Nick
There are many reasons why flyers enter kits. There are many reasons why flyers may choose to take a DNF or a DQ.
Why were there NO DNF's in the ASRA? Were any of the DQ's intentional? If the number of qualifiers was NOT tied to the number of entrants, would we see a decrease in DNF's or intentional DQ's? If all entrants wanted to fly and have the judge score their birds, would the number of DNF's and intentional DQ's go up or down? Are our fly's without honor? Why enter if you don't want to fly? Why enter if your kit stinks and you know it? If the number of entrants was not tied to the number of qualifiers, would we still have a regions with many many DNF's and intentional DQ's?
There is will always be life's problems that get in the way of being able to fly. There will always be BOP that destroy the fruits of our labor. There will always be the weather to contend with.
There is no one answer to your question. If there is an answer, it can only be answered the flyer.
Roller glory can be fleeting but Roller Honor can last a lifetime.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2434 posts
Jun 01, 2010
6:51 AM
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Nick
Are you now saying that, since the rules do not mention that a flyer can DQ himself", that somehow it now means he can? I have seen flyers with zeroes request a DQ (somehow, there seems to be more honor in a DQ than a 0 for a veterean flyer), and I have seen judges refuse to grant their wishes in every case. A DQ requires specific circumstances...Maybe the rules should be examined to see if it IS possible for a flyer to call for a DQ when none exists. But I can't find any such leeway. Can a flyer just make up a rule on the spot to suit his own wishes? I don't think so. Time saved? Really?
On another note, most of us remember the famous "NO MAS!" uttered by Duran. Does anyone think that played IN HIS FAVOR? He quit and there is lots of honor in quitting?
Cliff
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Scott
3059 posts
Jun 01, 2010
7:45 AM
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Who ? never have I seen this nor do I see a purpose in such .. there is little or no difference between a zero or a DQ
(I have seen flyers with zeroes request a DQ )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2436 posts
Jun 01, 2010
8:51 AM
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Guys
I'd rather not mention names...but take my word, it was a veteran flyer who admitted that he was embarassed by the performance of his birds.
Another interesting issue is that many of our better flyers, especially Master Flyers and guys who have won in the past, are (like it or not) "ROLE-MODELS"....no pun intended. Next thing you know flyers will be calling for DQ's for all kinds of reasons, none of which are defined in the fly rules...... Reason.... "Well, ol' so-and-so did it and so it must be the thing to do under these circumstances." A DQ now becomes a "badge of honor." Hehe he...and the WC is "OUR MOST PRESTIGOUS FLY"..........? Not with these types of things happening! I think I read somewhere... It takes guts to fly! LOL If that is true, why does it take guts to "ASK" for a DQ?
Brian
In your case, feeling as you did, had you just called time in, the outcome would have been the same but you would not have ASKED for a DQ. It's really sort of a moot point becasue there are many ways for a flyer to DQ a kit without actually asking the judge just to grant it at his request.
....A very interesting topic Nick.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 8:54 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
663 posts
Jun 01, 2010
9:12 AM
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My guess is that we all have been embarrassed by the performance of our birds at one time or another. So what, stuff happens, especially during a fly. I think old slim Nick is just trying to stir up some fecal matter. It is all much ado over nothing, let it go and move on!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
3061 posts
Jun 01, 2010
9:25 AM
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My money says he didn't have a zero and that it was something else .. if this is the case lets please use the correct facts to make a point.
(I'd rather not mention names...but take my word, it was a veteran flyer who admitted that he was embarassed by the performance of his birds.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 9:26 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2437 posts
Jun 01, 2010
9:34 AM
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Joe,
While this might not be a big deal to you or I, it obviously offended Nick's sense of honor and integrity, especially since there appears to be no specific rule that grants the flyer the right to choose a DQ rather than a zero. So he has a right to raise the issue. And while, to Scott, there is little difference between a DQ and a zero, I think there is a huge difference that is perceived between the two, in the minds of most flyers. A DQ is many times the result of circumstances that are out of the flyer's control, like heavy rain, or it may be the result of trying to get the most out of your birds during the prep (typeically viewed as an acceptable excuse for poor performance). A zero is viewed more as the fault of the flyer.....mismanagement (poor selection, poor prep, etc.) or the perception of crappy birds, neither of which is a badge that most care to wear. While most of us know that on a given day, anyone's birds might embarass us, regardless of the experience of the flyer or the family of birds being flown, some guys will look at low scores and jump to conclusions that may not be warranted, and competitors know that.
Just for the sake of this conversation, it would be interesting for Scott to site what rule gives a flyer the right to request a DQ where none actually exists. I am not familiar with this "ring the bell and ask for a DQ" rule. In our region, a flyer has to suck it up and endure the torture of a yard full of colleagues in the sport watching his crap birds on that day, knowing that he is flirting with a zero! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 9:39 AM
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Scott
3062 posts
Jun 01, 2010
10:07 AM
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Actually Cliff .. I didn't request it.. I told the judge that this is a waste of time.. and he suggested that I ring the bell and DQ the kit.. but the fact is you don't have to ask.. just interupt the kit and it's done... and no you can't stop it regarless of the region.
Why torture the judge with a sorry kit that isn't kitting and can't score ?
Tt's silly and a waste of time... anyone that has done much judging knows this and appeciates when you aren't forcing them to wrench their necks for nothing.
As for DQ being the fault of outside forces .. not true.. 99.99 0/0 of the time it is due to just plain blowing it such as I did... but just to make you all feel better not only did I cross out the DQ and put a zero on the score sheet.. but I also gave myself a 1.0 x 1.0 on zero points and then stuck my head in the microwave for 10 sec just for good measure.
Now I suggest you guys slamming me on this worry about your own teams and figure out where you have gone wrong year after year so that you don't have to worry about those that are on the bottom of the sheet..
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 10:26 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
664 posts
Jun 01, 2010
10:17 AM
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Cliff,
Neither case should be viewed as a dishonor. The same circumstances that can result in a DQ can also result in a low score, eg, weather conditions, out birds, etc. At least those flyers had the courage to fly. What I find offensive is the kibitzers that don't fly in competition but always have a negative comment about those who do and don't do well. I still say old Nick is just trying to stir the pot, he isn't offended by any of this.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 10:18 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2438 posts
Jun 01, 2010
12:04 PM
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Scott,
Not really slamming you, buddy...just trying to see where this mindset is coming from amongst the veteran flyers....in my own region, as well as others, as we can see.
Cliff
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
653 posts
Jun 01, 2010
1:25 PM
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Scott
I think it was considerate of you and the judge to move on. As you and others have pointed out, it sucks to see a kit working, but you can not score because a few birds decide to dance to a different drum.
At least a BOP attack allows everyone the excitement to see if the birds will make it home, or be lunch. Not to mention the rules allow some leeway so can still score a few points.
I think the right decision was made, you could have easily clapped your hands and said get up there you lame birds, for the DQ. But both you and the judge saw that they were not going to do anything. We have all let out a kit and knew that it was crap from the get go. Even though Paul did not take advantage of your generosity, at least he was given a good opportunity to, and that was better than screwing up his chances, to watch a non scoring kit.
Good job respecting the judge, the other fliers, and having good sportsmanship by allowing your competitor to have the best opportunity with his team.
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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fhtfire
2552 posts
Jun 01, 2010
2:41 PM
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First off....I would like to Thank Scott for giving his kit a DQ...or they most likely would not have made it to my house on time.
I would have done the same for Scott.
The first thing is this...anybody in any sport can call off a competition if they want to...Boxing calls it throwing in the towel....There have been many times in sporting events when a competitor will DQ themselves. Sometimes its to help a fellow competitor...sometimes its safety....sometimes it is just time.
I watched a lab field trial on ESPN 2 and watched a guy DQ his dog....the dog was not following commands...he just whistled off the dog and took no score. I have watched Golfers do something illegal to get DQ or hit a ball out of bounds 10 times so a team mate can move into a better position....I have watched wrestlers who were hurt and could not perform to there level...Forefeit all the matches.....WEll if they were true competitors they would fight the pain....or finish the race....that is just not true.
Now...You can DQ yourself....and I have seen fliers DQ themselves many times....and to me I tell them thanks...so we can stay on track and save time.
As far as birds coming back together etc...of course we have seen that....but only the fancier knows his birds...and I will say this....I can tell the second my birds go up if they are on or off.....Scott knows his birds.....and its his call to DQ...it really affects nobody else...AT ALL. I could care less if someone DQ...if the birds come back together...they will feel like a Jack Ass.....no skin off my tail....just gives me something to make fun of...LOL....I wish Scots birds came back together and tore it up...and Then I would have called him a knumbnut.
Either way...the coach of the team is the one that makes the call and EVERY situation is different.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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