shukz
100 posts
Jun 06, 2010
10:32 AM
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hey guys,whats the pro's and cons of pairing mother to son,i flew my kit the other day for another flyer,1 spacific cock stood out amongst the kit,the flyer said what you have there is a piece of gold,remove it from the kit and pair it back to his mother asap,i plan on taking his advice,just wondering what your guys take on this?
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Shukz(RSA)
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4354 posts
Jun 06, 2010
11:21 AM
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This sometimes works very well, especially when there were very little faults in either bird. Sometimes a problem occurs when both the mother and the son share a fault. That fault could be and is often found to be exagerated in the off spring.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1808 posts
Jun 06, 2010
12:54 PM
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Nick is exactly right and the good news is the qualities will also pop out. It takes more then one breeding season to remove the faults and increase the good. Don't expect to produce a super bird the first mating.
Thom
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Scott
3072 posts
Jun 06, 2010
2:06 PM
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Why ? just pairing because they are mother son is meaningless .. How do they compliment each other ? is it a good balanced mating ?
Pairing birds without any consideration to "why" is meaningless regardless of relationship.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2010 2:06 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
665 posts
Jun 06, 2010
4:32 PM
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Scott is right. Mother to son pairings can be good if there is a specific reason for doing it. Does this hen regularly produce excellent spinners? Do the pair have qualities that you want to emphasize? Are there any faults that may be magnified? If it was as simple as putting mother on son, everyone would have exceptional birds. Think it through. What are you trying to achieve with this pairing.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2010 4:33 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
659 posts
Jun 06, 2010
6:23 PM
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I have bred father to daughter. My best bird bred in 08, my first year, was a hen. So at the end of the 09 season I got 2 rounds from her and her father. Late round and the 4 are not even flipping yet. The hen was rolling well at 6 months.
I never flew the father, So I guess I learned that he did not give the hen her freguency, LOL.
As said above find birds that compliment each other. But an experiment is always fun.
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RT Williams
Brink of Rolling Loft
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1810 posts
Jun 06, 2010
6:53 PM
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You have to start somewhere and consolidating the gene pool is better then a shot in the dark.
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
846 posts
Jun 06, 2010
7:05 PM
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Thom...Or a sharp stick in the eye.JDA
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4087 posts
Jun 06, 2010
8:22 PM
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Hey Shukz, just do it and see what happens. No one knows precisely what is going to happen good or bad. But at a minimum, you will have started jamming the pedigree (some won't like that reference) and started the line-breeding process which is key in developing homozygous birds. Best of luck!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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fhtfire
2555 posts
Jun 07, 2010
12:32 AM
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I dont do it...reagardless. I think it is to close...unless you are locking in something special...because the risk of hitting the bad jeans is just as high.
I have tried it and got some good birds..but they just were off...something about them I did not like....like they were goofy...kind of spaced out.....wild eyed....'
I am just one of those fliers that breeds a little different...I dont go that close..I like the cousins ....aunts Uncles...Great Aunts and Uncles....and Grand Parents...Just bouncing around like that....but I bounce around with purpose..Like Scott stated....you breed for balance or that gut instinct...not just because who is related to whom...
So..I dont do it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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shukz
101 posts
Jun 07, 2010
1:52 AM
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Hey guys,thanks for the replies,basicly when i started out i went into it blind,got a mason hen and deano forster cock,i contacted the original breeders of the birds,they both had lots of good to say,the birds were also very well bred,the guy who bred the mason said that the hen was very deep and tight,stable,the guy who bred the deano forster wanted to buy the bird back from me,the bird was the nephew of the 2006 uk national old bird champ,iv never seen both birds fly sins i have them so as i say again,i went in blind,i have bred 14 young birds off this single pair so far,and so far i have been very happy with the results,they roll,they kit,they stable,i have only not been satisfied with 2 out of the 14,so i think seeing that im already blind into the hole thing,going abit further in wont hurt,i will try the mother to son and see what happends
thanks guys
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Shukz(RSA)
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4355 posts
Jun 07, 2010
10:04 AM
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Brother -in- laws and step sisters do real well.
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What Is Life Without Honor?
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Nick Siders
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david94
98 posts
Jun 07, 2010
12:10 PM
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Last year I bred a very good hen from an on loan cock that had been recommended and was fortunate again this year to acquire his services. So decided to pair him back to his daughter this time! But my experience to date has been the same as Pauls, goofy looking (along with full muffed legs/feet!!!) and wild!! Me thinks a little too close??
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1812 posts
Jun 07, 2010
4:09 PM
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I'm in my forth generation of mother to son, father to daughter and the occasional brother and sister. I won't nit pick but I will post pictures of the results across the span of five years.
They look alike, they act alike, they respond the same. Oh did I mention, they spin their little butts off. :)
Thom
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2010 4:14 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1814 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:10 AM
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I want to point out that line breeding is not for everyone. I do not recommend it for anyone just starting out. It requires a strict adherence to only selecting and breeding from your very best. Holding a gene pool as tight as I have comes with inherent rewards and risks. What it will accomplish within a short period is to bring out the good traits as well as the bad.
Now that I have a well-established loft and if I get the results, I expect in this years young birds, I will open up my breeding program to include more distant pairings. I am not sure if a gene pool can be held that tight indefinitely but I also do not think it is necessary.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
4092 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:31 AM
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Hey Thom, I like the path you are on, keep it up. As far as your gene pool becoming too tight, consider starting an additional line using the same family but going in a different direction with it. For example, breed a line of medium to large birds. Keep the quality up but set aside a unique set of birds for this project from your current stock. This technique will give you birds within the same family expressing some alternate traits without the need to go outside the family down the line and bringing in a whole different set of genes.
At the point you feel your birds are getting too small, you can bring in one from the other sub-strain to get the size back up. Or for example, you can get another Ruby roller from our lofts. Either way, you are ensured you are not opening up the gene pool to serendipity for years to come by adding unrelated bloodlines.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about.” – Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 6:32 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1815 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:43 AM
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Hey Tony, as you know I'm not about to introduce any other blood into them. I will heed your advice and carry additional lines all from where I am now and with my stock. I have experienced no adverse traits but to the contrary only improvement. I have you to thank for a very good start and an already tight gene pool. I lost some very good birds to the hawks last year but in the process I learned how to avoid them as much possible. I see Coopers everyday but have no losses this year. I know I will lose some but the only way to develop a family of proven spinners is to fly them.
Take care my friend
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
849 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:52 AM
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Thom...This is my 2nd yr with Tony,s family.I have had a rocky start this year with paratyphoid loosing the first two rounds to it.It sure is a good feeling to see young birds fourth day out doing what they do at that age again in learning what there wings are for.I have a good foundation with the 644D hen in everything from Tony I have and have raised. My job know is to tighten them(levi's),Gene Pool.Earlier this year Tony sent me 4 young cock that are strong 644D to work with my hens I have raised that have all done well in the air.I,am already looking forward to next years breeding season. It's all in the family.JDA
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 7:54 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
850 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:57 AM
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Thom..Thous are very good looking birds in your program.JDA
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1816 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:20 AM
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Thanks Joe, I expect very good things from this years crop of young birds. I have 44 banded and the rest are coming soon. I'm going to stop with 40 Ruby young and 10 of Bill Roy's Jacconette's. I have no plans to ever mix the two unless as a side project. All of my Ruby young are from three pair of birds and the use of fosters. All three pair are father/daughter pairings that were picked from the air. I stepped away from my foundation pair this year and am breeding completely from their progeny. This should be a good test to find out how well I'm doing.
Good luck with your young birds and keep us informed!
Take care my friend
Thom
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
852 posts
Jun 08, 2010
12:46 PM
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Thom....I got hit today,2nd bird in 7days.He came out of a tree and took one of my Patrick youngsters. Last week lost a Ruby not for sure if it was a bop. My lucky seven are down to five.)-: JDA
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 12:46 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1818 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:35 PM
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Joe, Lock them down for at least a week. Then change your fly times if possible. I never fly the same time two days in a row.
Now this will sound silly but several people have said it works. Tie a couple of old CDs to your loft and in the tree the attack came from. Tie a cord onto the CD and a counter weight and then chuck it up into the tree. Hawks apparently do not like shiny things and will stay away. Of course that will not help if the attack comes while in the air but it might if from the trees or on the kit box.
I feel your loss, I know what it is like first hand. Last year I lost the best bird I have ever raised. A red check cock that just ripped it every time. He never took a misstep, thirty foot, once a minute average, no wings showing just a blur. Each time I flew him, I thought just one more time then I'll put him away. I flew him one time too many but the truth is, I would fly him in the morning if he was still alive. I guess I'm an adrenaline junkie! :(
Best of luck with them!
Thom
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